Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

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Okay, here's my solution to the wealth problem . . . I finally found the solution! This just SCREAMS balance all the way! Realize now that this is based on the logical conclusion that wealth gains decrease per level after Level 40, although wealth DOES still accumulate. I have found a formula, a simple one, that works! This is AWESOME! Who says Ea is the only math expert around here? :D

First off, use the rules and charts in the ELH as-is up through Level 40.

Above Level 40, however, the rules have to change for the sake of balance. UK, as good as you usually are at balancing these things, the Level x Level x Level x Level x 5 formula simply does not work, giving away WAY too much wealth at higher levels and INCREASING the gains per level!

The balance is in listening to the ELH's explanation that wealth accumulates at a slower rate after Level 20. Even more importantly, that rate slowly down once more at Level 40 to the point where the growth per level stops entirely. Any other way, and you get lots of wealth problems VERY quickly. Using the following formula guarantees balance pretty much INFINITELY through the levels!

Here we go!

The formula itself is basically that, starting at Level 41, the increase in wealth is 1/Level. This means that the increase from Level 40 to Level 41 is 1/41, the increase from Level 41 to Level 42 is 1/42, etc. Basically, it's works as follows, where W is your new wealth, C is current wealth, and L is the level you are attaining. If you were going from Level 40 to Level 41, it goes like this:

W = C * [(L + 1) / L]

Looks complicated? That's what you think! After doing the calculations, I have been able to figure out the EXACT numbers that make this SO SIMPLE! First, I must point out that for all final calculation of wealth, I rounded to the nearest gold piece. (If you don't do that, it IS 100% exact and thus more accurate, but then you must contend with fractions of a gold piece. Rounding down, the loss of wealth is negligible and not at all a factor, like maybe 1 gold piece per 3 levels and that's about it.)

Do the math yourself if you'd like. Using the EXACT formula (without rounding), the gain at EVERY SINGLE LEVEL is EXACTLY 331,707.3171! That's right. EXACTLY THAT. You get this:

Level 41: 13,931,707.3171
Level 42: 14,263,414.6342
Level 43: 14,595,121.9513

It's that exact! Of course, those franctions complicate matters unnecessarily, and as I said, the losses from rounding are so miniscule that they aren't even a factor.

That said, simply put, a character gains 331,707 gp per level from Level 41 through inifnity! In this way, you still acquire more wealth, but the "gains" per level stop entirely, balancing everything out PERFECTLY!

Using the new formula, you get this through Level 60:


Code:
Level 41: 13,931,707
Level 42: 14,263,414
Level 43: 14,595,121
Level 44: 14,926,828
Level 45: 15,258,535
Level 46: 15,590,242
Level 47: 15,921,949
Level 48: 16,253,656
Level 49: 16,585,363
Level 50: 16,917,070
Level 51: 17,248,777
Level 52: 17,580,484
Level 53: 17,912,191
Level 54: 18,243,898
Level 55: 18,575,605
Level 56: 18,907,312
Level 57: 19,239,019
Level 58: 19,570,726
Level 59: 19,902,433
Level 60: 20,234,140


A simple formula that can find the wealth at any level is as follows, where W is your wealth and L is the level you are attaining:

W = 13,600,000 + [331,707 * (L - 40)]

See? I did it! I found the perfect formula for wealth! Simple, easy to use, accurate, PERFECT! :)

ENJOY!

:o

Whoops, one more thing. Wealth for NPCs, starting at Level 41, would be exactly half of the wealth for PCs. There! All problems solved! :)
 
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Anubis said:


What are EDAs, ODAs, TDAs, and ZDAs?

EDAs are Esoteric Divine Abilities. UK mentioned that a possible EDA might be: You kill the deities body, but the deity simply takes your body in return. (He can describe it better).

ODAs are Omnific (Obscure ;)) Divine Abilities. Upper_Krust has not revealed an example, but they have to be pretty tough to deserve a +25. :eek:

TDAs and the(!) ZDA have just been revealed. TDAs might be Temporal abilities, but I doubt that this is correct. ;)

Whatever the ZDA is, it is apparently unique. I will not speculate upon what it may be.
 

Hi Anubis mate! :)

Anubis said:
That's what I thought, but Vegeta can EASILY drop even a Hecotoncheires or a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon WITH EASE, mainly thanks to the items!

Actually Hecatonchieres get weaker the less opponents you attack them with since they can only ply a certain amount of arms against a single opponent.

Anubis said:
Many things do not have access to Antimagic Field. That is not meant to be a limiting factor for magical equipment.

Virtually anything capable of challenging such an opponent will probably have anti-magic capabilities.

Anubis said:
Item creation also is not meant to be a limiting factor. Wealth is wealth. It doesn't matter where the item came from, it's well below his wealth, as explained in the ELH> (They say no items over 25% of total wealth, and no more than 3 items worth more than 10% of total wealth. I followed those rules to the letter.) If you have some alternative method for dealing with wealth, I would suggest that you tell us now, because going by the rules, this breaks down VERY easily after Level 40.

I have some rules for assigning artifacts to gods. I don't advocate an endless stream of epic+ items. You really have to consider where deities are going to gain these artifacts, most will either create them or have them created by the pantheon 'blacksmith' or 'archmage' if applicable - even then the expenditure in resources; time and energy will be extensive.

So you don't have to impose a limit on wealth but certainly artifacts don't grow on trees.
 

Hi Anubis and Knight Otu! :)

Knight Otu said:
What are EDAs, ODAs, TDAs, and ZDAs?

Knight Otu said:
EDAs are Esoteric Divine Abilities. UK mentioned that a possible EDA might be: You kill the deities body, but the deity simply takes your body in return. (He can describe it better).

EDAs are indeed Esoteric Divine Abilities. These are the powers of the cosmic deities (though others can gain them).

Meginjarder was created using an EDA classed ability. The Magical Anti-Magic of the Iron and Stone Collosi is another example of an EDA.

Superluminal gives you infinite speed. Mentensomatosis allows you to switch bodies with your would be killer. Killer Instinct allows you to score a critical with every hit. etc.

There are about 50 such abilities.

Knight Otu said:
ODAs are Omnific (Obscure ;)) Divine Abilities. Upper_Krust has not revealed an example, but they have to be pretty tough to deserve a +25. :eek:

ODA stands for Omnific Divine Abilities. I think I may have the ECL modifier may be wrong for these - it should perhaps be x2 ECL instead of +25 ECL.

Knight Otu said:
TDAs and the(!) ZDA have just been revealed. TDAs might be Temporal abilities, but I doubt that this is correct. ;)

Am I allowed no secrets! :p

Its not temporal. ;)

Knight Otu said:
Whatever the ZDA is, it is apparently unique. I will not speculate upon what it may be.

I may change this to ADA.

With this one the player tells the DM what happens next! :D
 

Hello mate! :)

Anubis said:
Okay, here's my solution to the wealth problem . . . I finally found the solution! This just SCREAMS balance all the way! Realize now that this is based on the logical conclusion that wealth gains decrease per level after Level 40, although wealth DOES still accumulate. I have found a formula, a simple one, that works! This is AWESOME! Who says Ea is the only math expert around here? :D

:D

Anubis said:
First off, use the rules and charts in the ELH as-is up through Level 40.

Above Level 40, however, the rules have to change for the sake of balance. UK, as good as you usually are at balancing these things, the Level x Level x Level x Level x 5 formula simply does not work, giving away WAY too much wealth at higher levels and INCREASING the gains per level!

The balance is in listening to the ELH's explanation that wealth accumulates at a slower rate after Level 20. Even more importantly, that rate slowly down once more at Level 40 to the point where the growth per level stops entirely. Any other way, and you get lots of wealth problems VERY quickly. Using the following formula guarantees balance pretty much INFINITELY through the levels!

Here we go!

The formula itself is basically that, starting at Level 41, the increase in wealth is 1/Level. This means that the increase from Level 40 to Level 41 is 1/41, the increase from Level 41 to Level 42 is 1/42, etc. Basically, it's works as follows, where W is your new wealth, C is current wealth, and L is the level you are attaining. If you were going from Level 40 to Level 41, it goes like this:

W = C * [(L + 1) / L]

Looks complicated? That's what you think! After doing the calculations, I have been able to figure out the EXACT numbers that make this SO SIMPLE! First, I must point out that for all final calculation of wealth, I rounded to the nearest gold piece. (If you don't do that, it IS 100% exact and thus more accurate, but then you must contend with fractions of a gold piece. Rounding down, the loss of wealth is negligible and not at all a factor, like maybe 1 gold piece per 3 levels and that's about it.)

Do the math yourself if you'd like. Using the EXACT formula (without rounding), the gain at EVERY SINGLE LEVEL is EXACTLY 331,707.3171! That's right. EXACTLY THAT. You get this:

Level 41: 13,931,707.3171
Level 42: 14,263,414.6342
Level 43: 14,595,121.9513

It's that exact! Of course, those franctions complicate matters unnecessarily, and as I said, the losses from rounding are so miniscule that they aren't even a factor.

That said, simply put, a character gains 331,707 gp per level from Level 41 through inifnity! In this way, you still acquire more wealth, but the "gains" per level stop entirely, balancing everything out PERFECTLY!

Using the new formula, you get this through Level 60:


Code:
Level 41: 13,931,707
Level 42: 14,263,414
Level 43: 14,595,121
Level 44: 14,926,828
Level 45: 15,258,535
Level 46: 15,590,242
Level 47: 15,921,949
Level 48: 16,253,656
Level 49: 16,585,363
Level 50: 16,917,070
Level 51: 17,248,777
Level 52: 17,580,484
Level 53: 17,912,191
Level 54: 18,243,898
Level 55: 18,575,605
Level 56: 18,907,312
Level 57: 19,239,019
Level 58: 19,570,726
Level 59: 19,902,433
Level 60: 20,234,140


A simple formula that can find the wealth at any level is as follows, where W is your wealth and L is the level you are attaining:

W = 13,600,000 + [331,707 * (L - 40)]

See? I did it! I found the perfect formula for wealth! Simple, easy to use, accurate, PERFECT! :)

ENJOY!

:o

Whoops, one more thing. Wealth for NPCs, starting at Level 41, would be exactly half of the wealth for PCs. There! All problems solved! :)

Certainly looks interesting. At first glance it seems to really impose itself perhaps too much.

I'm curious how this reverse engineers with regards the lower levels?
 

Upper_Krust said:

Certainly looks interesting. At first glance it seems to really impose itself perhaps too much.

And yet, when considered as a whole, it's so simple! That's the beauty of it, really.

Upper_Krust said:

I'm curious how this reverse engineers with regards the lower levels?

This does not work AT ALL at lower levels. The system is dependent upon the 13,600,000 gp wealth of Level 40 shown in the ELH, and on top of that, the formula creates a zero-growth pattern above Level 40. There is suppose to be an approximate 30%/level growth at Levels 1-20 and an approximate 10%/level growth at Levels 21-40, as the ELH states. This formula is for Level 41+ ONLY.

Call it "Epic Wealth System". Basically, if you continue stacking wealth up at the same rate as at lower levels, characters will have WAY too much wealth at higher levels. This means that the system MUST change at higher levels. This is for balance purposes, period, nothing more.

To offer proof, I revised my Vegeta according to the new numbers, and he is finally at the power level he is supposed to be at, which is under a Hecatoncheires or Prismatic Dragon, but still above most ELH monsters, Quasi-deities, Demigods, and Lesser Deities.

Check everything out, I think you'll find the numbers pretty perfect. We may not be able to agree on the divinity issue (I can not concede any further on the power issue because I calculated it up EXACTLY based on the powers of divine ranks, and thus the numbers must be accurate.), but I think the wealth issue is now settled once and for all, with a good solution that keeps the game balanced at higher levels.
 

Upper_Krust said:

In a one on one confrontation the 37th-level character could easily bypass a number of abilities (DR; SR etc) but that doesn't stop those abilities existing.

While this is true, it misses one important bit, Epic Monsters are by the mandate of the ELH about all that an Epic Adventurer should face and these creatures should be close to his level. Therefore since all creatures bypass these abilities they effectively don't exist.
 

Hi, Upper_Krust! :)
Upper_Krust said:

Superluminal gives you infinite speed.
I have trouble visualizing how that would work... Now I'm here, after a free action I'm on the moon?


ODA stands for Omnific Divine Abilities. I think I may have the ECL modifier may be wrong for these - it should perhaps be x2 ECL instead of +25 ECL.
:eek:
(Would you say that the power of n ODA is about the same as the power of my planar ruler template, if you looked at it?)


Am I allowed no secrets! :p

No :p


Its not temporal. ;)
Maybe True? I'll look through my Oxford Concise Dictionary sometime.


I may change this to ADA.
Absolute? (arg, I didn't want to spekulate...)


With this one the player tells the DM what happens next! :D
With other words, you become the DM. :p
 

TDA - Time lord Divine Ability?

I think making wealth by level increase beyond level 40 arithmetic rather than geometric is the way to go. I'd suggest a rounder figure like 300,000 gp/level, but that's just me. Also I agree that level 41+ Epic NPCs should have at least 1/2 PC wealth, they should probably all be unique beings themselves, although I suppose you could make up the Thousand Sun Guards of Ormazd who are all 50th level NPC Fighters if you wanted... :cool:
In that sort of case a lower NPC wealth by level would be reasonable.
 
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Hi all! :)

Apologies for my sloth. These boards are like wading through treacle the last few days - it could be the 'News Ticker', so I think I will switch that off shortly.

Anubis said:
This does not work AT ALL at lower levels. The system is dependent upon the 13,600,000 gp wealth of Level 40 shown in the ELH, and on top of that, the formula creates a zero-growth pattern above Level 40. There is suppose to be an approximate 30%/level growth at Levels 1-20 and an approximate 10%/level growth at Levels 21-40, as the ELH states. This formula is for Level 41+ ONLY.

Call it "Epic Wealth System". Basically, if you continue stacking wealth up at the same rate as at lower levels, characters will have WAY too much wealth at higher levels. This means that the system MUST change at higher levels. This is for balance purposes, period, nothing more.

To offer proof, I revised my Vegeta according to the new numbers, and he is finally at the power level he is supposed to be at, which is under a Hecatoncheires or Prismatic Dragon, but still above most ELH monsters, Quasi-deities, Demigods, and Lesser Deities.

Check everything out, I think you'll find the numbers pretty perfect. We may not be able to agree on the divinity issue (I can not concede any further on the power issue because I calculated it up EXACTLY based on the powers of divine ranks, and thus the numbers must be accurate.), but I think the wealth issue is now settled once and for all, with a good solution that keeps the game balanced at higher levels.

Okay, I'll go and check out the revised Vegeta.

Incidently I worked out a formula for the Epic Wealth Tables (which actually reverse engineers, I think) last night. :p

Essentially you find where the table doubles over then note the number of intervening levels. Then the next time it doubles the number of intervening levels is +1.

However I would still agree that the Epic Wealth tables are far too generous.

I may return to my initial idea of Level x Level x Level x 100 GP...?
 

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