Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Rating CRs vs Iconics

Hi S'mon!

Of course if you take it that CRs need to be rated vs a 'Core' PC party comprising Tordek, Mialee, Jozan & Lidda, you can't then start giving them non-Core Book stuff like Weapons of True Striking! The default is PHB & DMG only. Balancing CRs against PCs using every supplement out there (whether WotC or not) is an impossible and thankless task.

Agreed.

However, I think what we can do is measure a monster or character in and of themselves to find the ECL. The CR derives from this figure but is subject to a situation modifier* at the DMs discretion.

*eg. If none of the PCs could bypass a certain monsters DR (or SR) then seemingly that encounter should have an increased CR. Likewise if all the PCs can defeat a monsters DR or SR then that should have its CR decreased. etc.

Perhaps an ad hoc -1 direct to CR for every countered factor; +1 direct to CR for an impervious ability.

 

[Anubis]

Yes. That way there is a point to having the Intermediate Status.

The number of deities (Demi/Lesser/Inter: not counting quasi-deities) in the Pantheon is equal to the Divine Rank of its most powerful god.

About this subtracting 3 ranks from all deities, having only 4 ranks above 15 worth of greater deities, and the number of deities equally the number of divine ranks of the most powerful deity . . .

That doesn't work for the Greyhawk Pantheon, does it? I tried it out, but with over 100 deities in the Greyhawk Pantheon (all of which are divine rank 1 or highter), it just simple doesn't work. What would you advocate doing for the Greyhawk Pantheon?

For now, I'm only going to consider the 23 from Deities & Demigods, for simplicity's sake. How would you advocate handling the divine ranks, though?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Wealth

Hi all!

I thought I would let you know I think I have solved the whole wealth issue (which had also been raised in the 'Fast Healing' thread).

Anyway its sort of a return to my initial ideas with a twist.

Firstly you determine overall wealth:

ECL x ECL x ECL x 100 GP

Then you determine how much wealth is personal equipment:

CR* x CR* x CR* x 100 GP

*My modified Challenge Rating that is.

Also both figures are identical up to 20th-level. So no problems therein.

eg. 40th-level PC (ECL 40 = CR* 30)

Total Wealth: 40 x 40 x 40 x 100 = 6.4 million GP
Personal Equipment: 30 x 30 x 30 x 100 = 2.7 million GP

Any comments?

Incidently I haven't set on NPCs yet.

Edited because I neglected to mention that Artifacts are not relative to the above totals. There is a seperate mechanic for determining a deities artifacts.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

About this subtracting 3 ranks from all deities, having only 4 ranks above 15 worth of greater deities, and the number of deities equally the number of divine ranks of the most powerful deity . . .

Yes.

(Thats the total number of Demigod; Lesser God and Intermediate Gods is equal to the Divine Rank of the most powerful Greater God) Just to avoid confusion.

That doesn't work for the Greyhawk Pantheon, does it?

Well, firstly there is no Greyhawk Pantheon its simply an open cosmology. Even the D&D Pantheon isn't really a pantheon.

I tried it out, but with over 100 deities in the Greyhawk Pantheon (all of which are divine rank 1 or highter), it just simple doesn't work. What would you advocate doing for the Greyhawk Pantheon?

One possibility is reducing the deities to their racial and sub-racial components.

ie. You would have Suel Deities; Baklunish Deities etc.

For now, I'm only going to consider the 23 from Deities & Demigods, for simplicity's sake. How would you advocate handling the divine ranks, though?

Well I advocate each major race has its own Pantheon. So I would have Corellon; Garl Glittergold; Gruumsh; Maglubiyet; Moradin; Yondalla (etc.) all at Divine Rank 19. Perhaps even Kurtulmak depending on how prominent Kobolds are in your campaign.

Boccob; Nerull; Istus; Pelor (and one or two others) should remain Greater Gods at Divine Rank 17.

As for the others I think there are too many Divine Rank 15. WotC caused this problem by having the ability to bypass certain Divine Powers dependant on Divine Rank rather than Divine Status (as I advocate)

 

[poilbrun]

Re: Wealth

Hi all!

I thought I would let you know I think I have solved the whole wealth issue (which had also been raised in the 'Fast Healing' thread).

Anyway its sort of a return to my initial ideas with a twist.

Firstly you determine overall wealth:

ECL x ECL x ECL x 100 GP

Then you determine how much wealth is personal equipment:

CR* x CR* x CR* x 100 GP

*My modified Challenge Rating that is.

Also both figures are identical up to 20th-level. So no problems therein.

eg. 40th-level PC (ECL 40 = CR* 30)

Total Wealth: 40 x 40 x 40 x 100 = 6.4 million GP
Personal Equipment: 30 x 30 x 30 x 100 = 2.7 million GP

Any comments?

Incidently I haven't set on NPCs yet.

That would really give strange results at very high level, wouldn't it? An ECL 200 creature (CR 53 if I'm right), would have a total wealth of 200 x 200 x 200 x 100 = 800 million GP of total wealth, but his personal equipment will only be 53 x 53 x 53 x 100 = 14,887,700 GP, less than 2% of his total wealth! Things would only get worse at even higher level...

 

[Xeriar]

Re: Wealth

Anyway its sort of a return to my initial ideas with a twist.

Firstly you determine overall wealth:

ECL x ECL x ECL x 100 GP

Then you determine how much wealth is personal equipment:

CR* x CR* x CR* x 100 GP

*My modified Challenge Rating that is.

Also both figures are identical up to 20th-level. So no problems therein.

eg. 40th-level PC (ECL 40 = CR* 30)

Total Wealth: 40 x 40 x 40 x 100 = 6.4 million GP
Personal Equipment: 30 x 30 x 30 x 100 = 2.7 million GP

Any comments?

It's already silly at 40th level - what's he doing with 3.7 million GP in cash and equity? I mean, some people might dump their wealth into holdings, but not everyone.

In addition, a linear power increase (by ECL) requires squaring the cash. That is, it should be ECL*ECL*Constant - where constant is some nice big number, 1000-2000 is fine.

With a cubing approach you will outstrip the higher prices charged for epic-level items, and eventually it's no longer a contest between ECL but how well said god has spent its cash.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Wealth

Hi poilbrun and Xeriar!

Incidently, in case you hadn't noticed I edited the original post to take into account this wealth system doesn't concern the artifacts a deity possesses.

That would really give strange results at very high level, wouldn't it? An ECL 200 creature (CR 53 if I'm right), would have a total wealth of 200 x 200 x 200 x 100 = 800 million GP of total wealth, but his personal equipment will only be 53 x 53 x 53 x 100 = 14,887,700 GP, less than 2% of his total wealth! Things would only get worse at even higher level...

It's already silly at 40th level - what's he doing with 3.7 million GP in cash and equity? I mean, some people might dump their wealth into holdings, but not everyone.

Think about it though. What does a character gain from their adventures!? Do they automatically always gain just the items they need or want? No. Can they simply convert cash into the magic items they want. Only within certain parameters (Cities have a GP limit for items; as does even a Planar Metropolis).

You cannot buy items above 600,000 GP. You either have to find them; create them or commision them to be created (and good luck finding a spellcaster willing to waste the time and effort on an epic item just for you! Thats going to represent a handful of adventures in itself as payment up front depending on what the spellcaster needs; don't think its simply a matter of handing over the cash - anyone capable of making epic items is already epic level and no doubt rolling in cash as it is!)

In addition, a linear power increase (by ECL) requires squaring the cash. That is, it should be ECL*ECL*Constant - where constant is some nice big number, 1000-2000 is fine.

Not sure I understand your point here?

With a cubing approach you will outstrip the higher prices charged for epic-level items, and eventually it's no longer a contest between ECL but how well said god has spent its cash.

Surely this way places the emphasis on personal power rather than who has what magic items.

 

[Xeriar]

Re: Re: Wealth

Think about it though. What does a character gain from their adventures!? Do they automatically always gain just the items they need or want? No. Can they simply convert cash into the magic items they want. Only within certain parameters (Cities have a GP limit for items; as does even a Planar Metropolis).

An arsenal of minor magical items, probably doled out to a legion of followers. They still 'posess' them, though.

You cannot buy items above 600,000 GP. You either have to find them; create them or commision them to be created (and good luck finding a spellcaster willing to waste the time and effort on an epic item just for you! Thats going to represent a handful of adventures in itself as payment up front depending on what the spellcaster needs; don't think its simply a matter of handing over the cash - anyone capable of making epic items is already epic level and no doubt rolling in cash as it is!)

I'm redoing the whole city generation/economics thing to reflect the more ridiculous situations that the WotC system causes. I jst need to get off my be-hind and reinstall builder to write the damn thing, actually

Regardless, at the more ridulous levels we speak of, these people are holding more coin than ever could have been minted in history.

Not sure I understand your point here?

To increase the power granted by an item one step, it goes up to the next squared value.

Ie, a +11 item is 11^2 times some value, a +12 item is 12^2 times the same value, and so on.

If you increase monetary wealth based on a squares system (ECL * ECL * constant), then their equipment keeps pace with them. If you increase faster than that (like your insistance on ECL^3, or dear heavenly gods, ECL^4 earlier) than their items may outstrip their power.

Surely this way places the emphasis on personal power rather than who has what magic items.

You could refine CR^CR*constant to refer to their own personal gear, and not backup items, holdings, or stuff handed out to followers. I would agree with that.

But an ever smaller percentage of their wealth is going to be coin. And it's important to keep a squared system or less, especially with the ECLs you talk about in this Immortal's Handbook of yours...

 

[poilbrun]

Re: Re: Wealth

Think about it though. What does a character gain from their adventures!? Do they automatically always gain just the items they need or want? No. Can they simply convert cash into the magic items they want. Only within certain parameters (Cities have a GP limit for items; as does even a Planar Metropolis).

You cannot buy items above 600,000 GP. You either have to find them; create them or commision them to be created (and good luck finding a spellcaster willing to waste the time and effort on an epic item just for you! Thats going to represent a handful of adventures in itself as payment up front depending on what the spellcaster needs; don't think its simply a matter of handing over the cash - anyone capable of making epic items is already epic level and no doubt rolling in cash as it is!)

While I agree with you, since that's the way I play too, your system cannot be designed to be played YOUR way. It is true that it seems that WotC wants characters to be able to buy their magic items (e.g. in the Forgotten Realms, the Red Wizards of Thay now have enclaves in cities in other countries where they sell magic items), and even though in my games the most expensive item a player can find easily is around 2.000 GP. But that does not mean that another DM acts like this. And you should not force them to change their style of DMing to play with your rules...

That's about the same problems there was when Anubis thought every fighter would have Sure Striking on his weapon. You should not design rules to be only playable to your style, or else only people with the same style of play will be interested in them.

But, hey, that's easy for me. I'm much better at criticizing other people's rules than at creating rules myself! At least, I hope I help a little

 

[Necropolis]

Hi upper krust
i wanted to ask if something has changed about the release date for the immortal handbook and if you can give us a preview or a teaser from you book
by the way do you have some artworks from your book that you can show to us ?
thanks