Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Wealth

Hi Xeriar mate!

An arsenal of minor magical items, probably doled out to a legion of followers. They still 'posess' them, though.

Exactly. But the items borrowed by cohorts/followers are obviously not representative of 'personal' items, so they don't derive from the CR^3 x 100 GP table.

I'm redoing the whole city generation/economics thing to reflect the more ridiculous situations that the WotC system causes. I jst need to get off my be-hind and reinstall builder to write the damn thing, actually

Good luck with that!

Regardless, at the more ridulous levels we speak of, these people are holding more coin than ever could have been minted in history.

Looking at the demographics*. A population of 6 billion could support (approx.) 19 characters of 30th or higher level (as high as 43rd-level)

*Incidently just noticed you would need at least 23+ million to support Elminster as a 35th-level NPC (if hes the highest level).

Anyway. Our own planet has wealth akin to 100 trillion dollars (?) which is about 200 billion GP.

Then of course you have to take into account other worlds; other planes; other realities etc.

To increase the power granted by an item one step, it goes up to the next squared value.

Ie, a +11 item is 11^2 times some value, a +12 item is 12^2 times the same value, and so on.

If you increase monetary wealth based on a squares system (ECL * ECL * constant), then their equipment keeps pace with them. If you increase faster than that (like your insistance on ECL^3, or dear heavenly gods, ECL^4 earlier) than their items may outstrip their power.

I see what you mean now; I'll look into it, although I am happy with this current solution until I find a fault with it.

You could refine CR^CR*constant to refer to their own personal gear, and not backup items, holdings, or stuff handed out to followers. I would agree with that.

But thats what it does refer to. Only personal gear/equipment. Secondary equipment/wealth/property is all handled with the other table (ECL^3 x 100)

But an ever smaller percentage of their wealth is going to be coin.

Above 20th-level when NPC items start to bottom out at DMG limits; PCs are going to gain more and more items they won't personally use because they already own better equipment.

These secondary items are counted as wealth; not personal items.

And it's important to keep a squared system or less, especially with the ECLs you talk about in this Immortal's Handbook of yours...

Above 200 ECL the beings are going to be so powerful they won't bother with anything less than artifacts, if even then.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Wealth

Hi poilbrun mate!

While I agree with you, since that's the way I play too, your system cannot be designed to be played YOUR way.

Well actually its not about my way; your way; or anybody elses way - its about the right way!

Every rule in the IH is there because its the right rule (as I see it). If I find a superior rule then I'll use it. If someone shows me a fault - I'll fix it. This is all about creating the best tools for the job.

It is true that it seems that WotC wants characters to be able to buy their magic items (e.g. in the Forgotten Realms, the Red Wizards of Thay now have enclaves in cities in other countries where they sell magic items), and even though in my games the most expensive item a player can find easily is around 2.000 GP. But that does not mean that another DM acts like this. And you should not force them to change their style of DMing to play with your rules...

If I don't give DMs the best advice I can, then I am just wasting my time. These are not simply wild notions conjured up out of the blue. There is reason and logic behind these decisions.

That's about the same problems there was when Anubis thought every fighter would have Sure Striking on his weapon. You should not design rules to be only playable to your style, or else only people with the same style of play will be interested in them.

Anubis position was logically flawed though.

Even with access to sufficient funds a player should not be able to simply buy any item they wish. Even in a metropolis (100,000 GP limit in the DMG*) every item up to that figure has only a chance of being available; its not a certainty by any means!

*300,000 GP limit in the ELH

But, hey, that's easy for me. I'm much better at criticizing other people's rules than at creating rules myself! At least, I hope I help a little

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi upper krust

Hi Necropolis mate!

i wanted to ask if something has changed about the release date for the immortal handbook

No - its still dependant on WotC releasing D&Dg into the SRD.

and if you can give us a preview or a teaser from you book

I will be posting a preview/teaser when I have a definate date for release. Certain elements may still be subject to change in the interim and theres also that pesky OGL to worry about.

by the way do you have some artworks from your book that you can show to us ?

I have a couple of illustrations floating about though they were only 50% finished. I showed one to poilbrun last week although I may not be using it in the final work (it was for a Prestige Class that I may end up not including, I haven't decided).

I also have a large number of preliminary sketches for illustrations (mostly for the monsters section it must be said, and the covers).

thanks

Sorry I couldn't give you more at this stage mate!

 

[Xeriar]

Re: Re: Wealth

Looking at the demographics*. A population of 6 billion could support (approx.) 19 characters of 30th or higher level (as high as 43rd-level)

*Incidently just noticed you would need at least 23+ million to support Elminster as a 35th-level NPC (if hes the highest level).

Anyway. Our own planet has wealth akin to 100 trillion dollars (?) which is about 200 billion GP.

Depends on how you count it. The total value of the United States infrastructure (roads, buildings, etc) is worth some 120 trillion alone, the whole world more than four times that. Wealth that is more imaginary and 'priceless' skyrockets this value into the quadrillions.

So, at a modern-day value of 60$ per GP, that's 90 trillion gold coins alright, -but- there isn't enough gold on the planet to represent that.

The amount of liquid cash is far smaller - in the US, a half trillion dollars or so. Our wealth is largely based on how fast this money gets moved around, as this half trillion gets spent through twice a month.

Between the US Treasury and other sources, the total amount of actual 'wealth', as in money or something that represents money, is about four or five trillion dollars. Most of this is actually invested elsewhere, though, and 'already spent' in a way.

It's not that we have more physical, actual cash, just that the US moves it around faster than anyone else does, or has ever done. So you get a kind of super-economy because of its infrastructure.

 

[Anubis]

I had a HUGE rant I was gonna post here as to what all is wrong with UK's latest theory about wealth, but others have already pretty much said it all. Obviously, the theory simply does not work. I was also gonna rant about the arithmatic system, but I have decided not to. Instead, I am gonna go over several points I do feel need to be addressed.

1) Forget about realism, real-life economic issues, and all other such silly things, as they have no place in Dungeons & Dragons. Apples and oranges, people. The goal here is to figire out where the BALANCE is, simply put, and debating economic issues only complicates matters to an unnecessary degree.

2) Cubic and quadratic formulas have been proven to break the system time and time again, so how about we drop any such formulas from the debate as having been exhausted?

3) The sqare system has potential, but I fear that it may eventually break down as well. It has potential, though, as does an arithmatic system.

Okay, all that said, here is what I propose. First, forget about any cubic or quadratic formula, those things simply don't work no matter how you look at it. The brings us down to an arithmatic formula or the square formula.

The arithmatic system has already been shown to work well, so what number do we use for the square system? For the answer to that, simply calculate the current wealth table using the system and find out what multiplier would have been needed. Do this by squaring the level and dividing the wealth of that level by the number you get.

Level 21: 975,000 gp . . . 21^2=441 . . . 975000/441=2211
Level 31: 4,900,000 gp . . . 31^2=961 . . . 4900000/961=5099
Level 40: 13,600,000 gp . . . 40^2=1600 . . . 13600000/1600=8500

As you can see, the factor keeps going up. In order to curb the gross increase in wealth, turn that variable that goes up each level into a constant. It is 8500 at Level 40, so the best bet is obviously to stick the constant at a flat 10000 for Level 41 and above. Use the system in the ELH until you reach Level 41, as you would with the arithmatic system.

Honestly, they both have their good points and their bad points, and without EXTENSIVE playtesting against monsters in the Immortal's Handbook, the ELH, and others using the revised ECL rules, the perfect solution is impossible to find. It is one of these two, however, that much is certain.

Here is what I propose:

TOTAL wealth, including "intangibles": (Level^2)*10000
Wealth for equipment and money: 13600000+[(Level-40)*331707]

In other words, combine both systems! The squared result will be total wealth, while the arithmatic result is used to purchase starting equipment! (As always, though, no item can be worth more than 25% of that number, and no more than three items can be worth more than 10% of that number.)

Basically, it works. It takes the best of both worlds, puts them together, and creates a simply system for determining wealth.

There, problem solved. If anybody believes they can refute this system or show it to be broken, let them speak now. I stand by this system 100% and will answer any and all challenges.

 

[Anubis]

On a side note, UK, when will you be able to get back to the question I asked you in order to help sort out the Saiyan ECL/CR?

 

[Cheiromancer]

I have to admit that (level^2)*10000 has a nice look about it.

But does the arithmetic part really have to involve such ugly numbers?

 

[poilbrun]

1) Forget about realism, real-life economic issues, and all other such silly things, as they have no place in Dungeons & Dragons. Apples and oranges, people. The goal here is to figire out where the BALANCE is, simply put, and debating economic issues only complicates matters to an unnecessary degree.

I do not totally agree with you. If you like to play in a game where things are explained when compared to balance, then do it. But I much prefer playing in as realistic a campaign as can be. If that means breaking balance a little, then so be it!

Here is what I propose:

TOTAL wealth, including "intangibles": (Level^2)*10000
Wealth for equipment and money: 13600000+[(Level-40)*331707]

The thing I do not like about this system is that you would gain the same amount of money by going from level 40 to level 41 than you would by going from level 200 to 201! It means you should never be able to find a +6 longsword since it costs 720000 gp.

There, problem solved. If anybody believes they can refute this system or show it to be broken, let them speak now. I stand by this system 100% and will answer any and all challenges.

I hesitated before replying, but I thought I'd be brave!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Wealth

Hi Xeriar mate!

Depends on how you count it. The total value of the United States infrastructure (roads, buildings, etc) is worth some 120 trillion alone, the whole world more than four times that. Wealth that is more imaginary and 'priceless' skyrockets this value into the quadrillions.

I guesstimated the world wealth; I couldn't find an adequate resource on the net.

So, at a modern-day value of 60$ per GP, that's 90 trillion gold coins alright, -but- there isn't enough gold on the planet to represent that.

The amount of liquid cash is far smaller - in the US, a half trillion dollars or so. Our wealth is largely based on how fast this money gets moved around, as this half trillion gets spent through twice a month.

Between the US Treasury and other sources, the total amount of actual 'wealth', as in money or something that represents money, is about four or five trillion dollars. Most of this is actually invested elsewhere, though, and 'already spent' in a way.

It's not that we have more physical, actual cash, just that the US moves it around faster than anyone else does, or has ever done. So you get a kind of super-economy because of its infrastructure.

The above has reinforced my views on the wealth issue.

ECL^3 x 100 = Wealth including: Monetary Wealth; Property Holdings; Secondary Magic Items (those items you don't carry with you when you go adventuring).

CR^3 x 100 = Wealth including: Primary Magic Items (the items you do take with you when you go adventuring).

None of the above represent a deities artifacts (which are technically 'priceless' and created from worship points anyway).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

I had a HUGE rant I was gonna post here as to what all is wrong with UK's latest theory about wealth,

...well if it makes you feel better go ahead. Though couldn't you just make it a short, succinct and factual rant? I dread to think what you would consider a huge post mate.

but others have already pretty much said it all.

...and been answered.

Obviously, the theory simply does not work. I was also gonna rant about the arithmatic system, but I have decided not to. Instead, I am gonna go over several points I do feel need to be addressed.

Okay.

1) Forget about realism, real-life economic issues, and all other such silly things, as they have no place in Dungeons & Dragons.

I don't think you can forget about realism. We relate to fantasy through realistic elements.

Apples and oranges, people.

Doesn't that phrase mean there is little difference between two elements so as to make arguing irrelevant? So that would imply you thought there was little difference between realism and Dungeons & Dragons?

The goal here is to figire out where the BALANCE is, simply put,

I don't think that is the goal though.

The goal is to present a working Wealth system for characters of any level tempered by what we know are problematic issues at epic level (namely epic item acquisition).

and debating economic issues only complicates matters to an unnecessary degree.

It all seems pretty straightforward up to now.

2) Cubic and quadratic formulas have been proven to break the system time and time again, so how about we drop any such formulas from the debate as having been exhausted?

The problem is never the system but the application thereof.

I simply changed the application to suit a more logical precedent.

3) The sqare system has potential, but I fear that it may eventually break down as well. It has potential, though, as does an arithmatic system.

Okay, all that said, here is what I propose. First, forget about any cubic or quadratic formula, those things simply don't work no matter how you look at it. The brings us down to an arithmatic formula or the square formula.

The arithmatic system has already been shown to work well, so what number do we use for the square system? For the answer to that, simply calculate the current wealth table using the system and find out what multiplier would have been needed. Do this by squaring the level and dividing the wealth of that level by the number you get.

Level 21: 975,000 gp . . . 21^2=441 . . . 975000/441=2211
Level 31: 4,900,000 gp . . . 31^2=961 . . . 4900000/961=5099
Level 40: 13,600,000 gp . . . 40^2=1600 . . . 13600000/1600=8500

As you can see, the factor keeps going up. In order to curb the gross increase in wealth, turn that variable that goes up each level into a constant. It is 8500 at Level 40, so the best bet is obviously to stick the constant at a flat 10000 for Level 41 and above. Use the system in the ELH until you reach Level 41, as you would with the arithmatic system.

Honestly, they both have their good points and their bad points, and without EXTENSIVE playtesting against monsters in the Immortal's Handbook, the ELH, and others using the revised ECL rules, the perfect solution is impossible to find. It is one of these two, however, that much is certain.

Here is what I propose:

TOTAL wealth, including "intangibles": (Level^2)*10000
Wealth for equipment and money: 13600000+[(Level-40)*331707]

In other words, combine both systems! The squared result will be total wealth, while the arithmatic result is used to purchase starting equipment! (As always, though, no item can be worth more than 25% of that number, and no more than three items can be worth more than 10% of that number.)

Basically, it works. It takes the best of both worlds, puts them together, and creates a simply system for determining wealth.

There, problem solved. If anybody believes they can refute this system or show it to be broken, let them speak now. I stand by this system 100% and will answer any and all challenges.

Okay try this:

If your system is balanced why doesn't it flow seemlessly with sub-40th levels?

...and if the answer is that the sub-40th levels are unbalanced how can your system purport to be balanced if it still uses an unbalanced regime at its core?

I prefer my system - it works at any (even non-epic) levels.