Using Gestalt?
- Thread starter Stormborn
- Start date
Stormborn said:
One thing about Gestalt is that you will find some of the alternative classes very powerful
Warmage, Warlock and Hexblade are very powerful as Gestalt because they can cast in armor -- Psion and Psi Warrior also rock for this reason
My suggestions for a Gestalt game are
No multiclassing if the party is 4 or more. No prestige classes -- I would allow some PRC abilities as feats though -- and at least 32 point buy. This will put your gestalts about 1 to 3 (depending on build stats and level) over regular characters.
I don't know how balanced this is but I would allow leveled races ala Savage Species as part of Gestalt. If the race has less than 20 levels additional levels in the monster may be multiclassed (even in a 3+ party) after the whole progression is finished and you have to stay with that class
This way you can have something like Rogue 10 Doppleganger 8 (max) Fighter 2
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
mcrow said:
No it's a term found in Unearthed Arcana that is like the old 2nd edition system of multi-classing. It allows the PC to combine the best features of BOTH classes into one. And still be able to advance both via the normal rules for XP tables.
Ace,
yeah cause now with the Marshall/Favored Soul, I'm kind of out of luck when it will come to combat. But there you are.
Viktyr Gehrig
First Post
Personally, I think it's awesome.
Because of limited feats, most characters end up with a "primary" class and a "secondary" class-- the primary being the one they focus their feats and gear on, the secondary being the one that simply provides them extra tricks. It's hard to build a Gestalt character that really blends the two sides of their nature-- which I like using as a story tool.
Gestalt probably needs some House Rules to make it fit better into the rules-- treat it as its own class system, instead of simply a modification to the class system. A lot of the really abusive builds go away when you treat each Gestalt combination as a seperate "class".
In my games, I just disallow the Psychic Warrior-- it's like a base class version of the Illithid Slayer anyway. Take the PsW power list and make it a discipline; you can get the same effect by combining Fighter and Psion. If you want to go all-out (and avoid nerfing the Githzerai and Thri-Kreen) you can also let Psions choose whether they manifest based on Intelligence or based on Wisdom.
I haven't seen any other combinations that are just ugly without specific tricks-- Rogue/Warlock is fine if you disallow the improved invisibility-like invocation.
So far, I haven't seen too many abusive combinations that Gestalt creates-- it just makes old abusive combinations more powerful. VoP Monk gets a lot more vicious in combination with either Druid or Psychic Warrior, for instance, and Scout/Dervish builds work better when you don't have to interrupt your Scout progression.
Most of the really bad stuff I've seen has involved not following the rules in the Gestalt variant itself-- no Mystic Theurge or Arcane Trickster, no combining two Prestige Classes, and no using Gestalt to offset a massive LA. (Level Adjustment applies to character level, not class level. A lot of LAs should be lowered accordingly, but you still don't get to ignore them.)
It's not bad if you allow monster HD to be Gestalted-- monster HD are, for all intents and purposes, just class levels of really crappy classes. (Except Dragon and Outsider-- I'm still working out how to make those work.) I'd recommend only allowing monsters to combine one class with all of their racial HD, and in my own games, I force that choice-- Thri-Kreen are Scouts, Illithids are Psions, Ogres are Barbarians.
Losing HD is part of the penalty of LA-- and allowing characters to offset that with single-class levels doesn't work. Which is more reasonable for a 10th level Gestalt game, a Half-Celestial Paladin/Favored Soul 6 or a Half-Celestial Favored Soul 6/Paladin 10?
Because of limited feats, most characters end up with a "primary" class and a "secondary" class-- the primary being the one they focus their feats and gear on, the secondary being the one that simply provides them extra tricks. It's hard to build a Gestalt character that really blends the two sides of their nature-- which I like using as a story tool.
Gestalt probably needs some House Rules to make it fit better into the rules-- treat it as its own class system, instead of simply a modification to the class system. A lot of the really abusive builds go away when you treat each Gestalt combination as a seperate "class".
DaveMage said:
In my games, I just disallow the Psychic Warrior-- it's like a base class version of the Illithid Slayer anyway. Take the PsW power list and make it a discipline; you can get the same effect by combining Fighter and Psion. If you want to go all-out (and avoid nerfing the Githzerai and Thri-Kreen) you can also let Psions choose whether they manifest based on Intelligence or based on Wisdom.
I haven't seen any other combinations that are just ugly without specific tricks-- Rogue/Warlock is fine if you disallow the improved invisibility-like invocation.
So far, I haven't seen too many abusive combinations that Gestalt creates-- it just makes old abusive combinations more powerful. VoP Monk gets a lot more vicious in combination with either Druid or Psychic Warrior, for instance, and Scout/Dervish builds work better when you don't have to interrupt your Scout progression.
Most of the really bad stuff I've seen has involved not following the rules in the Gestalt variant itself-- no Mystic Theurge or Arcane Trickster, no combining two Prestige Classes, and no using Gestalt to offset a massive LA. (Level Adjustment applies to character level, not class level. A lot of LAs should be lowered accordingly, but you still don't get to ignore them.)
Ace said:
It's not bad if you allow monster HD to be Gestalted-- monster HD are, for all intents and purposes, just class levels of really crappy classes. (Except Dragon and Outsider-- I'm still working out how to make those work.) I'd recommend only allowing monsters to combine one class with all of their racial HD, and in my own games, I force that choice-- Thri-Kreen are Scouts, Illithids are Psions, Ogres are Barbarians.
Losing HD is part of the penalty of LA-- and allowing characters to offset that with single-class levels doesn't work. Which is more reasonable for a 10th level Gestalt game, a Half-Celestial Paladin/Favored Soul 6 or a Half-Celestial Favored Soul 6/Paladin 10?
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Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
Another reason when it was suggested I'd "gestalt" my Githerzai levels with my paladin levels, I said "no." I'm sticking with this character the way he is, come hell or high water. Or at least until I blow up Xoriat. 
Merc,
I'll let you know since I'm in the Eberron Cycle (ala Shadows of the Last War, Whispers of the Vampire's Blade and Grasp of the Emerald Claw.)
So far, it's not been too easy or too hard but then we only had the Warlock/Warmage. (Shadows if you're interested) We'll see now that we have the Marshall/Favored Soul in the mix...but who knows? We are, after all, near the end of this particular mod.
mcrow,
Glad I could clarify that.
Merc,
I'll let you know since I'm in the Eberron Cycle (ala Shadows of the Last War, Whispers of the Vampire's Blade and Grasp of the Emerald Claw.)
So far, it's not been too easy or too hard but then we only had the Warlock/Warmage. (Shadows if you're interested) We'll see now that we have the Marshall/Favored Soul in the mix...but who knows? We are, after all, near the end of this particular mod.
mcrow,
Glad I could clarify that.
Ashrem Bayle
Explorer
For the one-on-one game with my wife, she is playing a Spellthief/Wizard and I'm running a Psion/Cleric of Zuoken (thought the first level is actually Psychic Warrior/Cleric) NPC.
We're going to tackle the Sunless Citadel. Should be interesting.
We're going to tackle the Sunless Citadel. Should be interesting.
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
Ashrem Bayle said:
Spellthief?! Huh personally I'd gestalt with Warmage myself...But the Psion/Psw/Cleric isn't that bad of an idea. Maybe when the next installment of Mind's Eye comes on line Ashy, you might want to change to *insert name of Gem Dragon's God* as your patron. I always liked him.
Gwaihir
Explorer
I run one of these games PNP and play in one PbP -- Same world.
I created a backstory about greater and lesser races, so that I could use stock or generated NPCs in some roles. This seems to be working OK.
I originally did it because I wanted to try it, and due to the low number of PCs (3) we have since gone to 4 players
I really like that it takes players out of a stereotypical role. In the past we had a player who, as a weak roleplayer, would get stuck playing either the fighter or the healer, depending on what everyone else chose. Now we have a wide variety of skills because roles arent filled just cause you need them:
Current PnP party all 5th level
Rogue/Ftr/Wizard
Ranger/Druid
Druid/Sorcerer
Cleric/Barbarian
Just lost a Cleric/Ftr
The downside in my mind, is the time character creation and NPC generation takes.
I created a backstory about greater and lesser races, so that I could use stock or generated NPCs in some roles. This seems to be working OK.
I originally did it because I wanted to try it, and due to the low number of PCs (3) we have since gone to 4 players
I really like that it takes players out of a stereotypical role. In the past we had a player who, as a weak roleplayer, would get stuck playing either the fighter or the healer, depending on what everyone else chose. Now we have a wide variety of skills because roles arent filled just cause you need them:
Current PnP party all 5th level
Rogue/Ftr/Wizard
Ranger/Druid
Druid/Sorcerer
Cleric/Barbarian
Just lost a Cleric/Ftr
The downside in my mind, is the time character creation and NPC generation takes.
