Using Weapon Finesse with a Double Weapon

[Amazing Mumford]

I am in desperate need of some clarification here - is the off-hand attack of a double weapon eligible for the Weapon Finesse Feat? My DM seems to think that the attack penalties apply for a double weapon as if using a light weapon in your off-hand, but he doesn't think that the Weapon Finesse feat ability applies to that off-hand attack. The specific weapon in question is a Gythka. Any rulings on this??

 

[Infiniti2000]

Weapon Finesse applies to a light weapon. A double weapon is not (normally) a light weapon. (Note that a thread was created not too long ago, but probably during the crash-time, that asked for finessable double weapons. I believe one was found, but can't remember what it was.) Thus, weapon finesse does not apply. Note the special rules on double weapons for two-weapon fighting are specifically on assigning penalties and allowing you to fight with both ends.

Consequently, although you cannot use weapon finesse on either end, you can use power attack on both ends, which is not normally possible in a TWF combo where one is a light weapon.

 

[shilsen]

Just for the record, the 3.5 FAQ disagrees with Infiniti2000:

Is a double weapon considered a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon plus a light weapon, for the purposes of feats such as Weapon Finesse and Power Attack?

A double weapon can be wielded in two ways, either as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, or as a single twohanded weapon. Either way, it follows the normal rules for using such weapons.

Wielding as Two Weapons: The primary end (the “onehanded weapon”) adds your Strength modifier to damage, and the secondary end (the “light weapon”) adds one-half your Strength bonus to damage. When using Power Attack, bonus damage applies only to the primary end. If you have Weapon Finesse, you may add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with the secondary end (but
not with the primary end)....

 

[Bront]

That is inane. It shouldn't. Then again, the FAQ isn't always answered by sane people.

Double Weapons
Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. [/sblock]
Note the one handed and light are refered to as assosiated with two weapon fighting penalties. Besides, why would finesse work with one end of a weapon and not the other?

 

[RigaMortus2]

That is inane. It shouldn't. Then again, the FAQ isn't always answered by sane people.

Double Weapons
Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. [/sblock]
Note the one handed and light are refered to as assosiated with two weapon fighting penalties. Besides, why would finesse work with one end of a weapon and not the other?

Because one end is considered light and the other end is not (when using it with TWF that is). If someone was TW fighting with a Dagger in one hand, and a longsword in the other, you wouldn't let them use Weapon Finesse with the longsword, would you?

 

[Hypersmurf]

A double weapon is a two-handed weapon (assuming appropriate size).

There are two places in the Core Rules where reference is made to treating it as anything other than a two-handed weapon.

One is in the definition of double weapons in the Equipment section:
A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it.

The other is in the feat text for Power Attack:
(Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

There are two ways we can interpret the Power Attack reference. Either this is a rule about how double weapons are treated, or it is a rule about how double weapons are treated for purposes of the Power Attack feat.

What are some effects of a weapon being a two-handed weapon?

T1. +4 to disarm and sunder checks.
T2. 1.5x Str bonus to damage.
T3. 2-for-1 Power Attack.

What are some effects of a weapon being a light weapon?

L1. -4 to disarm and sunder checks.
L2. No Power Attack.
L3. Reduction in TWF penalties.
L4. Can be Finessed.

Let's say we assume that the text in Power Attack only relates to Power Attack.

This means that a double weapon is treated as a light weapon for the purposes of a/ penalties related to two-weapon fighting, and b/ Power Attack. That's L2 and L3. It means that the double weapon is still treated as a two-handed weapon for anything else - that's T1 and T2.

So if I'm using my quarterstaff as a double weapon, it is treated as a two-handed weapon for purposes of Disarm and Sunder checks - I get a +4 with both the primary and off-hand ends. It is treated as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of Str bonus to damage - I add 1.5x Str bonus to damage with the primary end, and with the off-end, I either add 1.5x for a two-handed weapon, or .5x for an off-hand attack (per the PHB Glossary entry for 'off-hand')... which of the two takes precedence is not stated. I add 1-for-1 Power Attack with the primary end, and 1-for-0 with the off-end. And I reduce my penalties for TWF for having a light off-hand weapon.

Now, if we instead wish to rule that you add 1x Str bonus to damage with the primary end, and .5x with the off-end, the only support for this in the Core Rules is if the double weapon is treated as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon for all purposes, not just for penalties related to TWF and for Power Attack. Which means that the text in Power Attack - Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. - must be read as globally applicable, not merely to the use of the feat.

Under this reading, I gain no bonus or penalty to disarm and sunder checks with the primary end of my quarterstaff, and a -4 penalty with the off-end. I add 1x Str bonus to damage with the primary end, and .5x with the off-end. I add 1-for-1 Power Attack with the primary end, and 1-for-0 with the off-end. I reduce my penalties for TWF for having a light off-hand weapon. And I can finesse the off-end.

The 3.5 Main FAQ takes this position - normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. Which suggests that they're reading the Power Attack text as globally applicable.

It works for me - I'd rather see the off-end finessed, than 1.5x Str bonus to damage with the primary end.

-Hyp.

 

[thompgc]

So if I'm attacking w/both ends of a double weapon it is easier to disarm and sunder then if I only attack w/one end? Esp if you attack the off-hand (light side).

 

[Infiniti2000]

So if I'm attacking w/both ends of a double weapon it is easier to disarm and sunder then if I only attack w/one end? Esp if you attack the off-hand (light side).

According to that interpretation, yes. Additionally, now you get someone disarming you on the light end, while unarmed and then I guess you both have a grip on the weapon (but that's very debatable because using a double weapon does not necessitate that you keep one hand on either end). There are no rules to resolve that issue, though.

Oh, and then there is the separate hp/hardness pools issue with that interpretation.

Now, if we instead wish to rule that you add 1x Str bonus to damage with the primary end, and .5x with the off-end, the only support for this in the Core Rules is if the double weapon is treated as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon for all purposes, not just for penalties related to TWF and for Power Attack.

I don't agree. I think the sentence "You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons." handles that. There's no reason we can't use that rule in the mix, too, and I'm unsure why you didn't include it in your summary.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't agree. I think the sentence "You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons." handles that. There's no reason we can't use that rule in the mix, too, and I'm unsure why you didn't include it in your summary.

But there's no clear rule for what bonus I add to my off-hand if I make an off-hand attack while fighting with two two-handed weapons, so 'as if' doesn't answer the question.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You can fight with two two-handed weapons? I guess if you have four arms. I have not otherwise seen a rule that allows you to attack with a two-handed weapon in one hand, whether it's your off-hand or not.