D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi xanatos mate!

So you'll probably have to recheck it!

What do you mean with "I subsequently list all the answers"?

I mean I pose the questions of when ability scores do and do not apply and then I list all the answers with big bullet points so no one can miss them.

I gave a lot of thought yesterday with Sizes... What table are U using for size? Are you using the "Changes to Statistics by Size" table of the 3.5 MM p. 292?

Thats part of it. But there are better Tables floating about somewhere with reach, space, AC/Attack bonuses/penalties.

The one that you have to use to make a monster bigger?
Because it's very complex to use that that table if you are building a monster from scratch.

Thats because of an inherant flaw in D&Ds treatment of sizes smaller than Medium.

I think you should include in the Size only Reach, Weight Multiplier and AC bonus/malus for Size. Natural Armor, STR, CON and DEX should be bought separately, even because you don't always apply them (look at the Ooze, Elder Gargantuan Green Jelly (or something similar)... It doesn't have a Natural Armor.

This would effectively get you into a Catch 22 situation:

eg. Lets say we don't rate (average) ability score increases from Size. Where do we add them then? As simply Ability Score increases? If so what happens to Ability Score increases from all other sources Templates; Racial Traits etc.

Either we have to rate where ability scores come from (as I do) or we have to ignore ability score modifiers from all sources and just rate them alltogether.

Surely the latter makes rating templates and traits irrelevant!?

And then there is another problem: your CR rules will be probably used for three things:
- building monster from scratch
- calculating the CR of an existing monster
- calculating the CR of a beefed monster
Now... If you build a monster from scratch you decide his attributes and armor (probably looking at the table Creature Size, Scores and Damage, p. 297 of MM 3.5). It's surely easyer to simply multiply the total attributes - the base attributes * 0,1 CR. With your method you'll have to subtract the "free points" before multiplying (so it's more difficult)
If you have to calculate the CR of an existing monster, it's the same... You have final attributes, you don't get the attributes without size.

Why not just create the ability scores then apply all modifiers?

As a note: what are the characteristics of Colossal+,Colossal++,Colossal+++? What do you get "for free"?

I thought they were pretty obvious, however I am going to have to revise Colossal + or better anyway, I have changed my mind on how to detail them.

Read "ability scores" = "size" and "mate" = "stupid"!

This could be a solution.... You wrote the breakdown for races/monster types...

This I can do.

Then put it at the beginning or in an appendix, so you save simmetry and space!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I think I have to agree.

The Size category shouldn't include anything that is bought in a seperate factors (Str, Con, natural armor). It will simplify your Size table, and it will definitely simplify the work for a DM trying to track down all the changes when he increases size or builds from scratch.

Size should include changes to AC, reach, maybe space (although I am not sure why that would increase CR) and some accomodation for the increase in base attack damage (natural or manufactured).

I don't think this is a good idea (see my previous post for reasons why)

Which, now that I mention it, is a better place for the "average combat damage" factor to be included than in Full Attack. I was much happier with Full Attack being calculated on BAB than on average damage. It makes no sense to change the CR of a Giant just because he happens to drop his Huge dagger and draws his Huge greatsword. (The CR difference for this single factor changes by almost x3!)

But that would actually change the CR. Though rarely would this every change the EL much.

UK, I'll say this: I'd rather have the framework be as good as possible than have stats for all of the monsters, if that is holding you back on improvements.

Not at all, I just want to make sure I have all the feedback before I begin any changes.

Although I have no intentions of undertaking the entirety of those revised CRs ever again.

One way we could work it is if we get at least a half dozen volunteers (who have at least a rudimentary grasp of the rules) and everyone picks a part of the monster manual and outlines those CRs under their charge. Fifty or sixty CRs wouldn't be too bad.

And I would love comments on my reply above from yesterday-- does it make any more sense?

Yes, thanks.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

One way we could work it is if we get at least a half dozen volunteers (who have at least a rudimentary grasp of the rules) and everyone picks a part of the monster manual and outlines those CRs under their charge. Fifty or sixty CRs wouldn't be too bad.

Crap, I haven't even got through one monster (my own!) yet. I'd be slow.

Now, what I really want is an automated spreadsheet. There's fame and fortune in it-- ok, mostly fame-- for any codemonkeys out there who'd like to undertake such a project to my specifications...

Wulf

 

[Kerrick]

Well, I'm back.. unfortunately, I forgot my notes, so I'll have to go off memory for now.

I temporarily circumnavigated those laws for the epic monsters for this technically playtest pdf, but the epic monsters are supposedly going to be updated before the release of the IH.

Did you snag a copy of the 3.5 conversion for the monsters? It's not a full conversion - they just fixed the feats, skills, and DR...

Ok. First off, thanks a lot to Wulf - your explanation of the EL calculation is so much simpler, IMO - I was tearing my hair out trying to make sense of the other one (sorry UK).

UK - I was busy converting all the varius monsters we've got, so I picked up a few things, mostly errors and such.

And now a few questions...

Why are the CRs so much lower than before? Seems like they're a bit more accurate, so I'm not complaining...

What's with all the different Colossal sizes? Which one do I use?

p. 6. The "Create spawn' example has a wraith creating a wight.

p. 7. The note for spell immunity reads "Spell immunity... is treated as +5...' I presume that's supposed to be +0.5, since that's what it's listed as on the table. That provided some confusion until I looked at v3 and saw it was supposed to be 0.5.

What's with all the funky CRs (1/9, 1/8, etc)? And why do the CR and EL go up equally until you hit 8-9? I don't seriously think a CR 5 creature is an EL 10 encounter, do you? I'm obviously missing something there...

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Ok. First off, thanks a lot to Wulf - your explanation of the EL calculation is so much simpler, IMO - I was tearing my hair out trying to make sense of the other one (sorry UK).

I hope it's helpful and UK deems it mathematically sound.

What's with all the funky CRs (1/9, 1/8, etc)? And why do the CR and EL go up equally until you hit 8-9? I don't seriously think a CR 5 creature is an EL 10 encounter, do you? I'm obviously missing something there...

You need to throw out your old conception of EL. Part of the confusion of UK's document is when old definitions hold over.

EL is simply a gauge of RELATIVE power. A CR 5 encounter is EL10, yes, because a 5th level character is ALSO EL10.

You could conceivably throw out the EL "conversion" table altogether, and compare CR to CR. The problem with that method, though, is that CRs can get very high, very fast, especially when you are totalling the CRs on both sides of a fight, making the math unwieldy. What the EL table does is it "boils down" CR to a new value, EL. You can then compare EL to EL on a much lower scale and with greater facility.

You could use the old CRs from the MM, plug them into the same EL table, and still end up with "correct" relative values-- this means that all further EL comparisons and calculations will still be correct. (This also assumes that you stick with 1 Character Level = 1 CR.)

What you can't do is mix and match CRs from WOTC and CRs from UK (unless you apply some of his "quick fix" calculations first). It's useful, then, to have a list of recalculated CRs, because the real strength of what UK has (in my opinion) is that you can easily add abilities to characters, and know their exact CR and EL relative to their opponents.


Wulf

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Wulf mate!

Crap, I haven't even got through one monster (my own!) yet. I'd be slow.

Your kung-fu's useless!

I am like lightning doing the CRs and it still took me the best part of 12 hours a day for a week.

Now, what I really want is an automated spreadsheet. There's fame and fortune in it-- ok, mostly fame-- for any codemonkeys out there who'd like to undertake such a project to my specifications...

Free copies of all the four Immortals Handbook pdfs (when they are released) if someone comes up with it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Well, I'm back..

Hiya Kerrick matey!

unfortunately, I forgot my notes, so I'll have to go off memory for now.

Did you snag a copy of the 3.5 conversion for the monsters? It's not a full conversion - they just fixed the feats, skills, and DR...

Yes, all my epic monsters are 3.5 compliant, based on that doc.

Ok. First off, thanks a lot to Wulf - your explanation of the EL calculation is so much simpler, IMO - I was tearing my hair out trying to make sense of the other one (sorry UK).

UK - I was busy converting all the varius monsters we've got, so I picked up a few things, mostly errors and such.

DOH!

And now a few questions...

Fire away.

Why are the CRs so much lower than before? Seems like they're a bit more accurate, so I'm not complaining...

I didn't know that they were noticeably lower?

What's with all the different Colossal sizes? Which one do I use?

You use Colossal.

Colossal+ is used in the Epic Level Handbook, though I made a few changes to that which I am contemplating changing back again so don't use any of the Colossal+ sizes.

p. 6. The "Create spawn' example has a wraith creating a wight.

DOH!

p. 7. The note for spell immunity reads "Spell immunity... is treated as +5...' I presume that's supposed to be +0.5, since that's what it's listed as on the table. That provided some confusion until I looked at v3 and saw it was supposed to be 0.5.

No, full spell immunity is treated a CR +5.

Spell Immunity to a single level of spells is +0.5. (Including 0th-level spells that makes 9th-level spell immunity +5)

What's with all the funky CRs (1/9, 1/8, etc)?

They have fractional CRs in the Monster Manual dude.

And why do the CR and EL go up equally until you hit 8-9?

Its all explained on Page 15.

Every time you double CR you increase EL by +4.

I don't seriously think a CR 5 creature is an EL 10 encounter, do you? I'm obviously missing something there...

Well remember that your PCs are also affected by the relationship between CR and EL. See Party Encounter Levels (PEL) on page 16.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Free copies of all the four Immortals Handbook pdfs (when they are released) if someone comes up with it.

I'll make sure I get "our hero" on a list for comp copies of all Bad Axe products...


Wulf

 

[xanatos]

I gave a lot of thought yesterday with Sizes... What table are U using for size? Are you using the "Changes to Statistics by Size" table of the 3.5 MM p. 292?

Thats part of it. But there are better Tables floating about somewhere with reach, space, AC/Attack bonuses/penalties.

Can you tell me where are they? Because that table is incomplete (being a relative table, you can't get the STR of Fine creatures (probably -12 or -14).

p.3 Size: you forgot that there are monsters without STR and CON... Spectres! (all Undead+Incorporeal creatures don't have STR and CON)

p. 7 Golems don't have Magic Immunity, in 3.5, they have Total Spell Immunity... It isn't clear in your rules, does Spell Immunity 0-9 gives you immunity to all spells, or only to spells from level 0 to 9 (no metamagic 9th level spells)

p.8 Summon: no, MULTIPLY by percentage! (if you divide something by 30%, you get a bigger number)
Shouldn't you use the EL of the creatures or something similar? Surely 10 goblins are not as strong as a CR 10 creature... They are only annoying... Unless the strategy is to slow the enemy!

I think that Turn Resistance should be capped at less than 1.5. Even if you have 20 turn res., you can still be turned and you have other Undead vulnerabilities (there are many nasty clerical spells around, plus Mace of Desruption etc.)

Immune to SOME Fortitude Saves (for CON = 0)... Disintegrate still works! :-(

Can you make a Reflex Save with Dex = 0? I'm not sure... I'll have to check. If you are immobile, then you should fail Reflex saves

Is no natural healing a modifier if the construct has fast healing? (is a disadvantage that is not a disadvantage still worth points?)

Wealth: wasn't the epic wealth rules different from normal ones? Are you using YOUR rules for wealth? Probably yes, but then you should write it clearly! Something like "Morons, I'm using MY wealth rules... Knee before me or DIE!"
Unless you have a whole chapter about wealth rules in your book!

Do monsters get the 1 attribute point / four levels for free?

p. 20 Can you sell back attributes/move base points between attributes?

If yes, wouldn't it be easyer to simply tell that you start with 63 or 72 "free" points for attributes (55 and 64 if you don't have an attribute)

--- Bye

 

[xanatos]

What do you mean with "I subsequently list all the answers"?

I mean I pose the questions of when ability scores do and do not apply and then I list all the answers with big bullet points so no one can miss them.

But your list (p.8, 2nd column, upper right) is wrong: You say that Ability Scores from Size factor affect CR... Ok... The Size affect CR... But it gives you free Ability Scores points. Reading what it's written it seems that you have to pay for the +8 STR that Large Size gives you.

eg. Lets say we don't rate (average) ability score increases from Size. Where do we add them then? As simply Ability Score increases? If so what happens to Ability Score increases from all other sources Templates; Racial Traits e

Then why Natural Armor isn't included in Size? I know that in a perfect world a creature would be the sum of various "layers" of templates... A Race/Type template plus a Size Template plus some generic templates plus the creature.
I consider Special Templates (Lich, Half Dragon etc) to be "adders" to the basic creature... You don't create a Half Dragon Half Demon Xyzptl from scratch. You first create a "Xyzptl"... Then you make it an Half Dragon Half Demon Xyzptl. So Special Templates should have attribute modifiers. Size is different. Each creature has a size and you normally don't start thinking a creature as a medium size creature and then enlarging it (or perhaps you could... For humanoid creatures sometimes I do this... I think it as a medium size creature and I ask myself how it would compare to a human... Then I enlarge it)... But many persons directly use the suggested values for creatures of size X, or directly compare it to other creatures (if I want the Yellow Dragon with Blue Spots I take a standard Dragon and I modify it... I don't start from scratch thinking "how would it be if it was a Human?")