Vampire Questions

[Alzrius]

You're going to need to prove that Energy Drain is an effect that improves a natural weapon in order for the monk's ability to function.

Hand-waving it away does not prove your point.

It doesn't disprove it either. It says that a monk's unarmed strike is a manufactured and natural weapon for all effects that "enhance" or "improve" either. Since "enhance" seems to connotate enhancement bonuses, we can say that's not what "improve" means. Since the SRD doesn't give us rigidly defined guidelines for what "improve" (or "effect") means, that leaves it open to interpretation. Mine being that adding an energy drain to it is "improving" it.

On a related note, the FAQ does agree with you, saying that a vampire monk can't use their energy drain with an unarmed strike. Page 7:

Please note that a vampire monk using its unarmed strike ability is not using its slam attack and cannot drain energy.

However, given that this seems to tacitly ignore that any natural weapon can also convey an energy drain, not just a slam attack, this already seems somewhat shaky. I'm inclined to say the FAQ is just wrong here (as it is in so many other places).

 

[GramercyRiff]

He doesn't need to slam at all, since he can use the negative level drain with an unarmed strike.

Also, to avoid those one-shot kills with sunlight spells, consider making your next vampire a Vampire Lord.

Unfortunately for the Vampire Lord, he's still roasted by greater turning...

I had such high hopes before clicking on that link...

On another note, I wish I could find the definition of a 'slam' attack to support Patryn. All I can say is a slam is a special attack that some creatures have. It is NOT a natural attack. Take it with a grain of salt, if you like, I can't find anything to prove my claim.

 

[Alzrius]

Unfortunately for the Vampire Lord, he's still roasted by greater turning...

I had such high hopes before clicking on that link...

Well, considering that a vampire lord gains an additional +4 turn resistance, giving him +8 total, he seems pretty safe from turning in general.

On another note, I wish I could find the definition of a 'slam' attack to support Patryn. All I can say is a slam is a special attack that some creatures have. It is NOT a natural attack. Take it with a grain of salt, if you like, I can't find anything to prove my claim.

Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.
Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

 

[GramercyRiff]

When you're right, you're right. And you're right, as far as using natural weapons to deliver a slam attack. Still, a vampire can only do it once per round.

As far turning a vampire, with +8 turn resistance or not, clerics can get get quite a few bonuses to their turning check. And when they hit that level of turning that will successfully turn, well...the world has one less vampire to worry about.

 

[Cabral]

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

The Energy Drain is not a spell and even if it is an effect for that purpose, it does not improve or enhance the strike. (it triggers when a natural attack hits)

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

An unarmed strike provokes an Attack of Opportunity therefore it is not a natural weapon. The unarmed strike class ability removes the attack of opportunity and provides a vehicle for the attacks to be improved, but it does not transform the unarmed strike into natural weapons.

In addition, if you scroll down just a little further it lists common natural weapons. In a game with monks as a core class and Improved Unarmed Strike available for anyone to take, an Unarmed Strike is rather conspiciously missing.

A Vampire Monk would have to use it's slam or bite to trigger the energy drain.

 

[Alzrius]

The Energy Drain is not a spell and even if it is an effect for that purpose, it does not improve or enhance the strike. (it triggers when a natural attack hits)

It is an effect. Likewise, (this is exactly where I said this'd go) it "improves" the strike by adding an additional effect to the damage dealt. It goes from just being damage to damage plus energy drain.

An unarmed strike provokes an Attack of Opportunity therefore it is not a natural weapon. The unarmed strike class ability removes the attack of opportunity and provides a vehicle for the attacks to be improved, but it does not transform the unarmed strike into natural weapons.

Transforming the unarmed strike into a natural weapon is exactly what it does. A monk's unarmed strike class feature explicitly says that it is to be treated as a natural weapon for all spells and effects. Energy drain is an effect that uses the vehicle of natural weapons. Ergo, it does use that.

In addition, if you scroll down just a little further it lists common natural weapons. In a game with monks as a core class and Improved Unarmed Strike available for anyone to take, an Unarmed Strike is rather conspiciously missing.

The list is not, nor is it meant to be, comprehensive. Likewise, even if it was, this is exactly why the monk's Unarmed Strike class feature explicitly calls out its use as a natural weapon.

A Vampire Monk would have to use it's slam or bite to trigger the energy drain.

Or an unarmed strike.

 

[Thanee]

But, he can use the rules for mixing manufactured and natural weapons, meaning he could make two attacks with his greatsword (+6 / +1) and a single slam attack (+6-5=+1).

The slam attack would be with a fist, or not? Then you cannot mix it with a two-handed weapon attack.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Speaking of Turn Resistance...

Turn Resistance (Ex): A vampire has +4 turn resistance.

For some reason, I doubt this has been included in the situation...

Ah, well...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

However, given that this seems to tacitly ignore that any natural weapon can also convey an energy drain, not just a slam attack, this already seems somewhat shaky. I'm inclined to say the FAQ is just wrong here (as it is in so many other places).

Is that from the 3.5 or 3.0 FAQ? Since the part about monk attacks being manufactured or natural is new in 3.5.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Cabral]

It is an effect. Likewise, (this is exactly where I said this'd go) it "improves" the strike by adding an additional effect to the damage dealt. It goes from just being damage to damage plus energy drain.

No it doesn't. It is an effect that targets the target of the unarmed strike which is triggered by the hitting with a natural weapon. The language of the Unarmed Strike ability is so that monks can use either Magic Weapon or Magic Fang.

Transforming the unarmed strike into a natural weapon is exactly what it does. A monk's unarmed strike class feature explicitly says that it is to be treated as a natural weapon for all spells and effects. Energy drain is an effect that uses the vehicle of natural weapons. Ergo, it does use that.

No. It says it can be treated as a natural weapon or a manufactured weapon for spells and effects that improve one or the other. In no other way is it to be treated as a natural weapon. If a spell negatively affects a target's natural weapons, it does not work on a monk's unarmed strike. The unarmed strike is not a natural weapon. It can be enhanced as if it were one, that's it.

The list is not, nor is it meant to be, comprehensive. Likewise, even if it was, this is exactly why the monk's Unarmed Strike class feature explicitly calls out its use as a natural weapon.

The list lists the most common. If the unarmed strike was intended to be a natural weapon, the simplest thing would be to call it a slam. The class feature explicitly calls out its ability to be enhanced by either Magic Weapon or Magic Fang (Although if you play eberron, a question of whether or not Artificer infusions work on non-construct monks )

Or an unarmed strike.

Sorry, it just doesn't work. The language is very precise and does not allow for it. By contrast, if the Energy Drain was an effect that charged a natural weapon with negative energy, then it would work.

Instead, it inflicts 2 negative levels on a creature struck by the Vampire's natural weapons and Unarmed Strikes are not natural weapons. This may be intuitively/conceptual wrong, but as far as the rules language is concerned, it is correct.

As a side note, natural weapons are not monk weapons and cannot flurry with natural weapons.

Also note:

Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

If a monk's unarmed strike was a natural weapon, he'd get one attack per round.