Vampire Questions

[Cabral]

Hey guys. Thanks for this rules discussion, you all helped me decide what my interpretation of the rules is going to be - a vampire Monk can use their slam attack as an unarmed attack, and thus as one of their flurry'ied attacks.

So you mean, you're going to allow a vampire with a +6 BAB to make a +6 Slam/ +1 melee and then can choose flurry on top of that? Or that they get one +6 slam as normal and can flurry on top of that?

I also think its fair to say that Patryn & Cabral aren't going to see eye to eye with Alzrius on this subject. You all have convincing arguments for both sides and well, thats the way it should be. D&D is amiguous, there will always be different opinions on rules - that doens't make then house rules it just means differend DMs interpret rules differently.

I suggest all concerned handle tha jandle adn then continue on with the debate - mainly 'cause I'm enjoying all the rules pull-outs.

As an aside, if a wizard monk can cast shocking grasp and then has a % chance that it discharges when the unarmed strike someone. should energy slams be treated the same - is there rules room for that sort of thing?

Just a thought...

No. Because, the shocking grasp is a touch attack and there are rules laid out for combining touch attacks and normal attacks. Energy drain, not being a touch attack, does not fall under this provisions.

As a Side Note:

Attack: Unarmed Strike +14 melee (1d10+5 plus energy drain) ...

A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.

Please note that a vampire monk using its unarmed strike ability is not using its slam attack and cannot drain energy.

The errata is silent ... so, if you think the books/errata override the FAQ, energy drain can be used with unarmed strikes. If the FAQ overrides printed material, then it can't. (My personal stance is (Books < FAQ < Errata < FAQ concerning Errata < My House Rules )

However, if a creature can make natural attacks in addition to manufactured weapons, a monk may do so. He can do so in addition to his flurry. (I may do this for vampires even though they cannot normally do this)

 

[Starglim]

However, if a creature can make natural attacks in addition to manufactured weapons, a monk may do so. He can do so in addition to his flurry. (I may do this for vampires even though they cannot normally do this)

So you're proposing that the creature would get (x monk attacks including flurry of blows) at -2, plus one natural attack at -7? That seems reasonable to me. I must have missed the reason why this would not apply to vampires.

 

[Cabral]

Yes, if the vampire 8th level monk had an attack bonus of +9, that would be +8/+8/+3 unarmed strike plus a slam at +2. (At 5th level, the penalty for flurry becomes -1, and at 9th, it disappears)

A vampire can't normally do that because their creature entry does not list them as being able to combine natural attacks as secondary attacks with a manufactured weapons.

Full Attack: Longsword +7 melee (2d6+6/19-20) and 2 hooves +3 melee (1d6+2); or composite longbow (+4 Str bonus) +5 ranged (2d6+4/×3)

Full Attack: Slam +11 melee (1d6+9 plus energy drain) or +1 spiked chain +13 melee (2d4+12) or masterwork shortbow +9 ranged (1d6/x3)

Thus, the centaur can do it while the human Vampire couldn't. Though, a centaur vampire could and could deliver the energy drain via its hoof attacks.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A vampire can't normally do that because their creature entry does not list them as being able to combine natural attacks as secondary attacks with a manufactured weapons.

Yes, it can.

All creatures with natural weapons and the ability to wield manufactured weapons may do so.

EDIT:

In the specific vampire example, you'll notice that he's got a spiked chain. That's a two-handed weapon. The designers have obviously decided that a vampire's slams come from using its arms, and therefore any arm involved in wielding a spiked chain cannot be used to make a slam attack (in the same way that a lizardman cannot use the hand holding a longsword to make a claw attack).

 

[FEADIN]

I would rather let him make the energy drain attack as part of the flurry of blow, not granting him more attack in the round even if this not the hard rule.
I read that the slam is given to the vampire to enable him to drain energy even if he has no natural attack (human) and don't suffer AoO each time he wants to fight.
For someone with natural appendages that can be considered weapons it replaces the slam (monk or someone with unharmes strike).

 

[Cabral]

I would rather let him make the energy drain attack as part of the flurry of blow, not granting him more attack in the round even if this not the hard rule.
I read that the slam is given to the vampire to enable him to drain energy even if he has no natural attack (human) and don't suffer AoO each time he wants to fight.
For someone with natural appendages that can be considered weapons it replaces the slam (monk or someone with unharmes strike).

That's reasonable. Although I was a bit surprised they didn't give the vampire a bita attack /shrug.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Carbral, for comparison, check out the Horned Devil (Cornugon) from the SRD:

• Attack:
  • Spiked chain +25 melee (2d6+15 plus stun), or
  • Claw +24 melee (2d6+10), or
  • Tail +24 melee (2d6+10 plus infernal wound)
• Full Attack:
  • Spiked chain +25/+20/+15 melee (2d6+15 plus stun) and bite +22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound); or
  • 2 claws +24 melee (2d6+10) and bite + 22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound)

You'll note that, in his full attack routine, he doesn't get to use his claws at the same time he's using his spiked chain, because his hands are already taken.

 

[Cabral]

Yes, but:
1) That doesn't neccessarily mean that's why he can't use it.
2) The vampire has 1 slam

However, I just rememberd the Lizardman has a shield which would explain where the second claw went.

 

[Alzrius]

Although I was a bit surprised they didn't give the vampire a bita attack.

Vampires don't have bite attacks; they aren't granted them by the template.

 

[Cabral]

Yes ... I was a bit surprised that template didn't give the Vampire a bite attack. The bite is instead dealt with as part of the blood drain ability. /shrug