Vampire: the Masquerade - New York by Night OOC Thread

[KitanaVorr]

1. Quotes don't bother me really. I don't use them in IC that much (if ever) so whatever everyone decides works for me.

2. How long is the lesson? I'm trying to keep an eye on the length of time for all the actions in there. I'm guessing we're sticking with the average music lesson length which is an hour. Then in your setup post you said that Jemal had mentioned cutting the lesson short. So its 45 minutes long currently?

 

[Festy_Dog]

Festy - CAN you have a silencer on a MAC-10 submachinegun? (I'm not IRL a gun guy AT ALL)

No problem, I'm happy to fill anyone in on any kind of gun info they want to know

Yes, the MAC-10 did have a silencer, though it would have to be one of the most ungainly looking ones I've ever seen. A primitive description would be to imagine something the size of a half used roll of toilet paper with another the size of a three-quarter used roll of toilet paper on the end of that. Its the one and only silencer I've ever seen for the weapon and I'm pretty sure it dates back from the days when US Special Forces used them (1960's/70's). There could quite certainly be more petite modern ones but they'd be custom made because the weapon was ceased to be made after about a decade I think.

Edit: Just an additional bit of trivia, my current sig is a FN FiveseveN (yes thats how its written) and is made by the same company who made the sub-machineguns used by the people in the Stargate SG-1 series.

 

[reapersaurus]

wow, Festy -
uh, OK - I only used a MAC-10 since that's the submachine gun that's listed in the rulebook....
Is there a more applicable submachine gun to use in modern-day (circa 2002) that would be likely used by Hunters, preferrably with a silencer?
Would the stats be comparable to a MAC-10?

Heck, that makes me wonder what else hasn't been updated in the rulebook -
aren't there more fancy bullets now that would be more effective vs vampires?
"Cop-Killer" bullets, or armor-piercing bullets... any others that would do vamps more damage than conventional gunfire?

 

[Shalimar]

Well the reason that bullets are relatively useless on Vamps is that they are dead. They only do bashing damage for a reason, there is nothing for them to hit that is vital to a vamp, except for the head an heart, and even them the bullets aren't magically impowered so they only do lethal. Guns just really aren't a deterrent. Its not the ammo, its the target. Now if you used dragons breath rounds, then you'd be getting somewhere, but they are special made and expensive as hell, they are pretty much custom made to slay vamps, being white phosphorus and all, what with the burning and super hard to put out flames.

 

[reapersaurus]

funny you post that, Shalimar -
I was just mentioning to Tory how most people I know in V:tM dismiss the danger of guns vs vampires.

But as I naivelly understand the rules, you give like 3 dudes submachineguns, and they open up on full fire, and a vamps gonna go down in 2 -3 rounds tops.

It's bashing damage, sure, but with so much damage a round, that vamps gonna run out of blood awfully quick... isn't he?

Catulle - I'd love a rules analysis of 3 Hunters with submachine guns (firing either 3 round bursts or full automatic) vs a newish vampire (like us).
The book mentions a 4 DEX, 3 Firearms guy getting 12 damage - that's a lot to soak, even if it's halved... and there's 3 guys.

 

[Shalimar]

Yes, but vampires aren't going to just sit around and take it, they do have their disciplines. With celerity they can be ina nd among the enemies, or very far away awuful fast, and then the hunters can't really use full auto without cutting each other in half. No celerity? No problem, even level 1 prescence can get them to stop being pesky and attack anyone who threatens you, with no save on their part. Level 2 and they head for the hills, level 3 and they turn their full auto weapons on each other. No prescence? no problem, Obfuscate, and disapear from their view. Or you could just melt into the ground with Protean, or turn to mist. Or Dominate them to kill each other, even at level 1 all it takes is the word STOP. Heck, spend 3 blood points, or 4 if your of a mind to boost your stamina to 6 and with fortitude you can feel free to laugh off the foolish nats.

Yes Mortals can be pesky in large numbers, and with flamethrowers, but not insurmountably so. Each Clan has 3 disciplines, odds are at least 1 of them could get you out of trouble. Besides the real trick is to not let them catch on to you in the first place. If your disciplines don't help you in the fight then they will help you to avoid one in the first place.

 

[reapersaurus]

Neat!
A mechanics discussion! (I love talking 'game')
Please let me know if any of my understanding of the rules is not right:

- Celerity only lets you move fast on your turn - it will let you run away all right, but I doubt if it alone will stop 3 humans who want you dead. Plus, if you run, it proves that humans with guns are a very viable danger to vampires, not a threat to dismiss lightly.
- Presence 1 is not a combat power. It says "danger breaks the spell of fascination". Also, can't they just spend Willpower to resist?
- Presence 2 and 3 and Dominate 1 are only against 1 opponent at a time (I think).
The other 2 are still doing their big damage to you. It's a quick battle of attrition that (I think) the vamp would lose.
- Obfuscate is the best defense, I think, against humans. Protean is good, too, and would work to stop this tactic.
- I think you can only spend one blood point a turn to increase physical traits - so you'd be dead before much effect is received.

So I look at all of us for a sample coterie, and I think that all of us are vulnerable to this kind of attack, are we not?

I hope this shows that the standard approach of dismissing humans with guns is not justified.
But Shalimar - you seem pretty experienced (as is Ash) - why do most V:tM players (I think) have this view that humans can't pose a threat to vamps?

 

[Shalimar]

Celerity only lets you move fast on your turn - it will let you run away all right, but I doubt if it alone will stop 3 humans who want you dead. Plus, if you run, it proves that humans with guns are a very viable danger to vampires, not a threat to dismiss lightly.

Running doesn't neccesarily mean they are a danger, it could mean that you simply, and quite understandably don't like the sensation. Eventually everything can be fatal, well not guns that do bashing, but I am betting a hunter would remove your head "just to be safe". Besides although possible you probably wont be donwned right away and thus can use the extra actions to disarm the one and repeatedly burst fire the weapon at the others. The'll go down a lot Quicker then kindred.

Presence 1 is not a combat power. It says "danger breaks the spell of fascination". Also, can't they just spend Willpower to resist?

Only vampires how have experienced it before, or who have used it would geuss that they were being affected (Its not very likely that a hunter would even realize it, possible, but then they would need a really high willpower to realize and people like that are less then .01 of the population). As far as the danger, if you hit them with it, then they would stop firing, or not fire in the first place, until you did something to the to break the effects and think they are in danger you are fine, as far as I know. So you could just wave and walk away.

Presence 2 and 3 and Dominate 1 are only against 1 opponent at a time (I think).

So you use prescence first, with a will power point to ensure at least 1 success, and most likely you wil roll at least 1-2 more, but if you miss one, then all you need to effect is 1, the 2 awed guys would try to argue the other guy down. So you hit awe again with a will power point, or not, and you can walk away, and munch down a snack so you can heal.

- I think you can only spend one blood point a turn to increase physical traits - so you'd be dead before much effect is received

Actually, blood expenditures a function of generation, the lower you are, the more you can spend per turn. I as a 9th gen vamp can spend 2, an 8th Gen spends 3, and it keeps going up the closer you get to Cain. Which reminds me, anybody want to help me kill my sire for the power in her veins as well as for moral reasons?


I hope this shows that the standard approach of dismissing humans with guns is not justified.
But Shalimar - you seem pretty experienced (as is Ash) - why do most V:tM players (I think) have this view that humans can't pose a threat to vamps?

They can prove a risk to vampires, if the vamps are foolish enough to be caught unawares. Their is a split though in vamps, ones that value and worry about their 'immortality' and gaurd it with elaborate precautions, and those who think that they are immortal and thus can never be killed, obviously its the latter that would fall into that trap. The former would know someone is inquiring/ following/ whatever, and set up ambushes, police raids to get their equipment confiscated, and generally weaken them enough so that they can be killed by the vamps of the latter type.

 

[Catulle]

Hello all,

I'll weigh in with an 'as I see it' on this one; bear in mind I'm willing to have my mind changed, as ever.

- Celerity only lets you move fast on your turn - it will let you run away all right, but I doubt if it alone will stop 3 humans who want you dead. Plus, if you run, it proves that humans with guns are a very viable danger to vampires, not a threat to dismiss lightly.

There's not really such a thing as a 'turn' in vampire - sure if you win initiative, you get your first action off before anybody else but you can always delay that action, or use it to dodge with.
You'd 'only' need 2 celerity to get 3 dodges in the round (one per mortal) to pretty good effect, given the dodge system (it's like soak pre-soak where if you win, you take nothing); with 3 dots, the vampire's extra action will become very telling (mortals can't soak lethal damage at all). Still, it's pricey in blood terms at a point a round; the best bet against firearms is the conventional one - take cover!

- Presence 1 is not a combat power. It says "danger breaks the spell of fascination". Also, can't they just spend Willpower to resist?

Got it in one; however, if the vampire doesn't take aggressive action, it's a cheap way of buying some time to get away (though against three people, you'd need 3 successes to affact them all). Resisting should only occur to those with an idea of precisely what's happening (plus, it's expensive at 1 willpower per turn). Hunters might qualify, but that's a maybe - hunters who get exposed to vampiric powers regularly don't tend to survive too long.

- Presence 2 and 3 and Dominate 1 are only against 1 opponent at a time (I think).The other 2 are still doing their big damage to you. It's a quick battle of attrition that (I think) the vamp would lose.

Absolutely. See Celerity 3, above. Fortitude, note, will skew the dynamic quite a lot too, and if they're using the automatic fire option, that leaves our mortals empty after a single round of gunfire... and reloading takes a full turn. I'll do some math in a moment.

- Obfuscate is the best defense, I think, against humans. Protean is good, too, and would work to stop this tactic.

Hence the idea of the Masquerade... if a vampire's facing down 3 guys with submachineguns who know what he is he's done something very, very wrong.
The Protean Earth Meld trick will only work on earth, not asphalt, not astroturf.

- I think you can only spend one blood point a turn to increase physical traits - so you'd be dead before much effect is received.

As Shalimar covered it, generation can (and does) affect this. Bear in mind the effect of Potency of the Blood on Generation, too. Also bear in mind that even a 13th generation neonate can raise his stamina as high as 10 provided he keeps spending blood on it every round (once he stops, it drops to 6 for the rest of the scene after 3 more rounds). Armour, of course, stacks on top...

- So I look at all of us for a sample coterie, and I think that all of us are vulnerable to this kind of attack, are we not?

Some moreso than others, of course

- I hope this shows that the standard approach of dismissing humans with guns is not justified.
But Shalimar - you seem pretty experienced (as is Ash) - why do most V:tM players (I think) have this view that humans can't pose a threat to vamps?

There's a world of difference between 'humans with guns' and 'a gang of humans with military-grade weaponry'. Simply put, people don't tend to own, use or carry submachineguns. A handgun is by far the most common firearm your characters should be encountering. That base-4 damage isn't so threatening to the Kindred as it is to the Kine (it's about equivalent to Maxwell punching somebody, in fact) save for the appealing factor of range. Also, there's a real reluctance, even in criminal circles, to be letting off that kind of firepower anywhere it'll draw too much attention, and automatic weapons always seem to attract too much attention; one reason the huters' most common modus operandi has to be investigation - trace the vampire back to its lair, scope the security, then do anything foolish during the day. Probably involving fire or sunlight.

Other opinions?

Regards,

Barry

 

[Festy_Dog]

Is there a more applicable submachine gun to use in modern-day (circa 2002) that would be likely used by Hunters, preferrably with a silencer?
Would the stats be comparable to a MAC-10?

Well I dunno about the stats for a MAC-10 in V: tM but I'll assure you that you'll not often find a .45 calibre sub-machinegun. A couple of suggestions for alternatives:

*.45 ACP IMI Uzi (silencer would be custom I think, 32 round clip?)
*HK 53 (Silencer would be a custom: its actually just a submachinegun size assault rifle (and yes HK make silencers for assault rifles) as much as HK would say otherwise, 30 round clip)
*HK USP45 (Military high calibre submachinegun, .45 ACP, 25 round clip, about half the firing rate of a MAC-10 though obviously more accurate, silencer made for the weapon)

note: Basically all HK designed weapons have a burst fire option, Uzi doesn't I'm quite certain (I read up much on IMI).

aren't there more fancy bullets now that would be more effective vs vampires?
"Cop-Killer" bullets, or armor-piercing bullets... any others that would do vamps more damage than conventional gunfire?

Well if I ever had to plan a fight with vampires I'd use hollow-points simply for how they'll tear up stuffs' insides and spit them out a sizable exit wound. (You should see the tests for different types of ammo they do on blocks of special gelatin! Then again a vampire wouldn't care if his spleen was on the wall behind him...)