Variant: The Surprise Round

[zlorf01]

Hi,

I was wondering how many DM's use the:
Variant: The Surprise Round (P61 DMG)?

Ive been using it for a while but am thinking about dropping it and going back to the standard way of handling combat with more emphisis on initiatives.
Though more deadlier, i feel it would add some excitement and tension to the combat. Anyone played both ways and noticed much difference to there game?

Zlorf

 

[Ravellion]

Both options seem okay, and usually not even all that different (depending on encounter distance etc.). I can't be bothered to even try it out, I kinda like the "fire four or five arrows before being able to act", I typically explain it a bit as complete disorientation with the suddenness of combat etc., and my players find it okay. Rogues like the standard way better too probably, but my players have a tendency to stay away from rogues, so that's just a guess.

Rav

 

[CullAfulMoshuN]

I believe that rogues are probably the reason that the varient rule was introduced in the first place. An ambush of decent level rogues is deadly enough, especially since the odds are the rogues will win initiative anyway alot of the time and get a standard action against the flat footed foes as well as surprise.

If 4-5 10th level rogues set up an ambush from the roofs of buildings with short bows and the rapid shot feat, they either each get one free shot before initiative is rolled, with the possibly of 3 more shots each against flat footed foes (+5d6 sneak attack with every shot), or 3 sneak attacks shots each before initiative is rolled. You can do the math, atleast the opponents have a chance to react with partial action surprise rounds.

CullAfulMoshuN...

 

[kreynolds]

I won't strip the rogue of their most precious ability, the sneak attack. I don't use the variant in my games because it takes away too much from the class. It also keeps my players on their toes.

 

[twjensen]

If 4-5 10th level rogues set up an ambush from the roofs of buildings with short bows and the rapid shot feat, they either each get one free shot before initiative is rolled, with the possibly of 3 more shots each against flat footed foes (+5d6 sneak attack with every shot), or 3 sneak attacks shots each before initiative is rolled. You can do the math, atleast the opponents have a chance to react with partial action surprise rounds.

CullAfulMoshuN...

I don't quite follow.

Under the standard rules, the rogues get 1 free shot each, then initiative is rolled and each rogue who wins initiative could take up to 3 additional sneak attacks.

Under the variant, the rogues get 1 free shot each, and then everyone is aware of everyone and no more sneak attacks. But the unaware party does not get to do anything during the first partial action under either system.

If you then house rule the variant so that participants who have not acted are still denied their dex bonus, you've essentially gone back to the rule as originally written.

 

[kreynolds]

If 4-5 10th level rogues set up an ambush from the roofs of buildings with short bows and the rapid shot feat, they either each get one free shot before initiative is rolled, with the possibly of 3 more shots each against flat footed foes (+5d6 sneak attack with every shot), or 3 sneak attacks shots each before initiative is rolled. You can do the math, atleast the opponents have a chance to react with partial action surprise rounds.

CullAfulMoshuN...

Rapid Shot only applies when you take the full attack action. You cannot take the full attack action during a surprise round using either the core rule or the variant core rule because it is a full-round action. You can only take a partial action. I might be wrong, but I don't think so.

 

[Trellian]

I have been using the Surprise Round variant a while now, and find it to even out matches more. Earlier, if I got a miserable Init result of the enemy wizard, all the characters just ran up to him and killed him immediately. No fun! Now at least the wizard can do something in return.

As for the 4-5 10th level rogues on a roof example, it would have turned out something like this in my campaign.

Surprise: The rogues fire. Sneak attack, the characters didn't spot them, no action

1 Round - Surprise Round - Both sides may act, the rogues would statistically win initiative, sneak attacking again

2 Round - Normal Round - Both sides are aware and have acted, no more sneak attacks

So my players would still be in peril from at least 8-10 sneak attacks...

 

[CullAfulMoshuN]

My apologies, I should have reread the varient surprise rule before posting. I assumed we were using it in our games, but after reading it I realised we actually aren't.

 

[Legildur]

Both campaigns I play in use the variant 1st round of initiative rule. I know we are talking surprise here, but same issues.

The variant rule (DMG p.?) only allows a partial action in the first round of combat.

All the players support it (including myself with a Rogue armed with a +2 crossbow of speed) as the alternative is a possibility that whoever wins initiative will completely dominate the opening round (you know, fireball, followed by buff fighters with great cleave charging in to clean up).

Of course, opponents could do the same, and the all or nothing approach of the standard rule doesn't appeal to us.

We see no reason to change back to the standard rule.