Versatile Spellcaster feat from Races of the Dragon

[Thanee]

We are talking about spells that the character knows, not spells that the class knows.

That's only what you see in there. It doesn't say 'spell the character knows', instead it says 'spell you know'.

BTW, I'm not talking about spells known there, I'm talking about 'spells you know'.

Above I had posted a core rules quote from the magic section of the PHB, here it is again:

CHOOSING A SPELL
First you must choose which spell to cast. If you’re a cleric, druid, experienced paladin, experienced ranger, or wizard, you select from among spells prepared earlier in the day and not yet cast (see Preparing Wizard Spells and Preparing Divine Spells). If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher.

Same wording: 'spell you know'.

So what is a 'spell you know'?

Is it...

a) a spell you know with the class, the spellcasting ability of which you are going to use, or
b) a spell you know as a character.

I say it's totally obvious, that this can only be a). It surely isn't the intent here, to allow spontaneous casters to freely cast all spells from other classes they obtain (without any feats or other special abilities, just because of the very basic spellcasting rules). It can only be a).

So, now that we know what a 'spell you know' is, let's take another look at the feat.

Why should it be any different?

There is also the 'spell you know' wording.
There is also a reference to a specific class (the class, that you use the two lower level slots from).
There is no specific mentioning, that the feat allows spell slots from one class to be used to cast spells from another class.

There is absolutely no reason, that a 'spell you know' means something different there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Except that unlike class features, feats are CHARACTER specific. They effect the character as a whole (unless specified otherwise, which this feat does not).

This is just an assumption you make, since many feats work like this. It's not a rule.

By this logic, if a character picks up Extra Slot, that extra slot will be usable with any spellcasting class that character has, right?

So, a 1st-level cleric/17th-level wizard, that picks up Extra Slot for 8th level, now has an 8th-level slot and suddenly becomes able to cast higher level cleric spells, right?

Bye
Thanee

 

[IcyCool]

So what is a 'spell you know'?

Is it...

a) a spell you know with the class, the spellcasting ability of which you are going to use, or
b) a spell you know as a character.

I say it's totally obvious, that this can only be a). It surely isn't the intent here, to allow spontaneous casters to freely cast all spells from other classes they obtain (without any feats or other special abilities, just because of the very basic spellcasting rules). It can only be a).

The answer is b. No distinction is made.

 

[hazmat]

The answer is b. No distinction is made.

So does that mean that I can cast 5th level cleric spells using my 5th level sorceror spell slots if I can cast 5th level spells as a cleric?

 

[KarinsDad]

Except that unlike class features, feats are CHARACTER specific. They effect the character as a whole (unless specified otherwise, which this feat does not).

It would be like a Fighter 3/Barbarian 3 who picked up Power Attack as their 1st level Fighter feat, only being allowed to use thier Fighter's BAB (instead of their character's base attack bonus) to power attack with. Because that is the class that picked up the skill. Which would then mean they could only PA for a total of 3 points (Fighter BAB +3) vs 6 points (Character's total BAB +6).

Your example here would have real teeth (and would be similar) if there was a rule that stated that Fighter BAB and Barbarian BAB are two different game mechanics and they do not stack. Hence, interpreting that Power Attack works for one or the other, but not both at the same time, would be a valid interpretation.

In the spell case, there are rules that state that you cannot use spell slots from one class to cast spells from another class.

Hence, the "any spell in any slot" interpretation of this feat is a violation of those core rules without it explicitly stating that it is doing this.

Power Attack is not a violation of the core rules concerning BAB, so your example here really is not very applicable.

 

[Thanee]

The answer is b. No distinction is made.

And you truely think that this is what they meant there?

I mean, that's pretty cool, adding like 50 or so new spells known to a sorcerer's repertoire just by multiclassing one level into a divine spellcasting class.

Or... why stop there? Why shouldn't a cleric 1 / sorcerer 19 be able to cast 9th-level cleric spells as well (and know the whole cleric list). The slots are there, there is no direct limit on what spells you can cast depending on your class level, so that works, right?

And people say the sorcerer is weak.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Machiavelli]

When feats change game dynamics significantly, and disobey fundamental core rules in the process, they do so in a carefully, explicitly detailed manner. A casual toss of 5 or 6 words doesn't cut it, because there are so many ways to read them.

If this feat was intended to allow cross-class casting (something the Geomancer PrC does, but with about 5 pararaphs of decription and examples) then it was written very, very poorly. I don't even hesitate to disclude vague feats from my campaigns, because there are ways to gain similar effects in almost any circumstances.

I'd also like to point out that the sole example given (there should have been more examples, like I hinted at above, if this feat granted cross-class casting) is of a sorcerer swapping out spells for another sorcerer spell.


My opinion? D&D is all about customization, of the rules just as much as the characters and campaigns. If you like interpreting the feat one way or another, use it in your campaign: your players may hate you for it, love you for it, or just decide not to use the feat at all, but the decision is up to you, the DM. It's the ultimate power trip, and a careful balancing act to keep your players happy.

 

[IcyCool]

So does that mean that I can cast 5th level cleric spells using my 5th level sorceror spell slots if I can cast 5th level spells as a cleric?

Technically, as pointed out by Thanee, yes. I do not, however, believe that was the intention.

Edit - Nor do I think anyone plays it that way.

 

[Mistwell]

Well I am slowly becoming convinced by the Thanee/KarinsDad crowd on this one.

I still firmly believe there is no issue of balance here. Being able to use it to help make multi-class spellcasters better is actually something the game could use, and not broken. I may in fact encourage a houserule for that reason.

 

[IcyCool]

And you truely think that this is what they meant there?

No. And I have said as much earlier in this thread. I do, however, think that it supports my point. I think the author intent for one is different than the author intent on the other.