D&D 5E Volo's 5e vs Tasha's 5e where do you see 5e heading?

[Minigiant]

You are literally stereotyping groups by age. Older players are less diverse, younger players will get bored.

I'm larging the groups and stating aspects of them.

Generations Y and Z were not alive when OD&D was created. So no one under 40 affected the climate of the very climate of early D&D.Cause that with WOTC's graphs hat say more than 50% of 5e players are under 40.
And yes younger people tend to control the changing of popular fads and trends.

As far as WOTC taking risks, not sure what you would have them do. If they had played it safe they would have continued to publish everything in FR. Instead we have FR, Eberron, Ravnica, Theros, Wildemount (even if they didn't directly oversee it's creation) and now Ravenloft. So "standard" D&D, magi-tech, urban campaigns, Greek mythology, a different spin on standard D&D, gothic horror.

Only one of those is a completely new setting. And again that''s not what I meant by safe.
Pages 38-41 of the DMG describe different types flavors of fantasy.

• Herioc Fantasy
• Sword and Sorcery
• Epic Fantasy
• Mythic Fantasy
• Dark Fantasy
• Intrigue
• Mystery
• Swashbuckling
• War
• Wuxia

5e defaults to Heroic Fantasy. 5e provides little content to change the game to any of the other flavors except Mystery in CandleKeep Mystery. And that's in Year 6. If you are generous and label Ravenloft as Dark Fantasy, that's 3 out of 10 flavor supported in 6 years. Enough time for someone waiting for the other 7 to buy 3rd party content or even drop 5e for another game. Will Game of Thrones fans wait 5 more years for so War and Intrigue rules or will they buy or homebrew their ownand skip the war setting book on 2026?

 

[Parmandur]

I'm larging the groups and stating aspects of them.

Generations Y and Z were not alive when OD&D was created. So no one under 40 affected the climate of the very climate of early D&D.Cause that with WOTC's graphs hat say more than 50% of 5e players are under 40.
And yes younger people tend to control the changing of popular fads and trends.


Only one of those is a completely new setting. And again that''s not what I meant by safe.
Pages 38-41 of the DMG describe different types flavors of fantasy.

• Herioc Fantasy
• Sword and Sorcery
• Epic Fantasy
• Mythic Fantasy
• Dark Fantasy
• Intrigue
• Mystery
• Swashbuckling
• War
• Wuxia

5e defaults to Heroic Fantasy. 5e provides little content to change the game to any of the other flavors except Mystery in CandleKeep Mystery. And that's in Year 6. If you are generous and label Ravenloft as Dark Fantasy, that's 3 out of 10 flavor supported in 6 years. Enough time for someone waiting for the other 7 to buy 3rd party content or even drop 5e for another game. Will Game of Thrones fans wait 5 more years for so War and Intrigue rules or will they buy or homebrew their ownand skip the war setting book on 2026?

Fundamentally, QotC doesn't care if people buy third party supplements, as long as they buy Owl Bear toys (which the kids love) or tshirts.

 

[tetrasodium]

Ok.

When it comes to expressions like "basically not even bothering with the rules," put me in agreement with Marandahir, Oofta, and Parmandur earlier in this thread. I think Wizards of the Coast are deploying rules through storylines (e.g. arctic conditions rules in Iceland Dale instead of in a 5th edition of Wilderness Survival Guide).

You and I have come to an impasse that may best be described as looking for different kinds of publications from D&D. Again, as I said above, I hope that Wizards of the Coast comes through for you in the near future.

I would note that it is not entirely accurate to write "5e was written to very heavily fit the needs of super heroic fantasy in the forgotten realms." I am certain that D&D Next was developed as an attempt to create a version of D&D that would appeal to as many people as possible. The Forgotten Realms is convenient as a world for most of D&D's Adventure Paths (but not all...Ghosts of Saltmarsh), but the D&D Next designers were concerned with creating a version of D&D that is a game that permits players to role-play in fantasy that can be customized. The D&D designers have gone out of their way to make it clear that the default setting is the "D&D multiverse," not Abeir-Toril. When looking for a popular "common currency" setting for most of the Adventure Paths books, the Forgotten Realms was the easy choice. But, I do not think D&D Next/5th edition was at all designed to "heavily fit the needs of upper heroic fantasy in the forgotten realms [sic]." The D&D tropes the designers were using and refining have been around long before Greenwood revealed the Realms to the public in the pages of Dragon.

But, that is an academic point and I do not want to derail us further. Clearly, I agree that the Forgotten Realms has been the "star pupil" example for D&D 5th edition, witness the illustration of dwarf or elf sub race descriptions with the Forgotten Realms terms as examples.

You and I agree that we love role-playing, we disagree with how successful Wizards of the Coasts' fundamental assumptions have been for the game as it goes forward.

You are right about the bolded part, but FR leans into them quite a bit while ravenloft eberron darksun very significantly veer off in different directions that need to fight against the rules in the core of 5e itself. Others like sigil & spelljamer can veer off in their own directions too but aren't as clear n their divergence. Take eberron's wide magic, that's great until you realize that core assumes +0 from magic items & that any limiting system like body slots+slot affinity is an unacceptable challenge to the pristine goodness of attunement slots. Survival elements of darksun are so off the map that people have even tried to explain new directions a 5e darksun can go in this very thread. Ravenloft's horror/suspense/dra,a can be amplified through more restrained recovery, tactical combat' restrictions, & some of the same survival elements that darksun leans on, but again these are left to making the GM build it themselves. If a GM need to build the rules & rejigger the system's math on their own because wotc is uninterested in providing optional components to enable they will probably have an easier time using some other system with mechanical support baked into core or core+options

 

[Hatmatter]

Personally, I would like a comprehensive rules encyclopedia. So I would like the PH content, with the classes but especially including all of the relevant updates since the PH came out. For example. The Cleric would include Xanathars option to revere a cosmic force. The Ranger Beastmaster would include the new animals in Tashas. The Artificer would be there too. And so on.

I do not fully get this. Isn’t this what D&D Beyond is for? Even if they wanted to publish a 400-page volume, would that not be even more intimidating to a new player? Wouldn’t the cost be prohibitive?

Wizards of the Coast has worked so hard to reprint material from Sword Coast and Eberron in Tasha’s. Is it that hard (or bad) to have Tasha’s and Xanathar’s and whatever the next volume is be books that people grow into at the relevant time in their D&D-playing lifespan?

Maybe I am a casualty of 2nd edition where my friends and I lugged a bunch of books around, but this notion that a revised PHB is going to realistically include the material from Xanathar’s and Tasha’s strikes me, with all due respect, as a far-fetched fantasy.

So when Wizards releases a new book of options in 2023 or 2026, then we will expect a further updated PHB that includes that additional material? What are we going for here? What is the endgame?

Maybe the desire to have every game option included between two covers is a generational divide or something, but I just don’t get it. I am fine letting the game develop and expand and I am fine buying new books and I am fine having the new players who come along start with the PHB or a starter set or the free rules online and then dip in from there.

I am DMing a game now with four brand new players. Some are using Tasha’s options I slipped them, but none of them could identify that volume by name. These things emerge over time. I bought the Essentials Kit for them because the PHB seems like it is intimidatingly big for them. Now people want a larger PHB just so we can include the Rune Knight and Circle of Spores Druid?

Count me clueless.

 

[Hatmatter]

You are right about the bolded part, but FR leans into them quite a bit while ravenloft eberron darksun very significantly veer off in different directions that need to fight against the rules in the core of 5e itself. Others like sigil & spelljamer can veer off in their own directions too but aren't as clear n their divergence. Take eberron's wide magic, that's great until you realize that core assumes +0 from magic items & that any limiting system like body slots+slot affinity is an unacceptable challenge to the pristine goodness of attunement slots. Survival elements of darksun are so off the map that people have even tried to explain new directions a 5e darksun can go in this very thread. Ravenloft's horror/suspense/dra,a can be amplified through more restrained recovery, tactical combat' restrictions, & some of the same survival elements that darksun leans on, but again these are left to making the GM build it themselves. If a GM need to build the rules & rejigger the system's math on their own because wotc is uninterested in providing optional components to enable they will probably have an easier time using some other system with mechanical support baked into core or core+options

What about those using the Wildemount book?

Tetra, we will see. I simply think you are identifying problems where there are none, but I grow weary my friend. I need to retire. Peace! As Gillian Welch sings, “Time’s the revelator.”

 

[Minigiant]

Fundamentally, QotC doesn't care if people buy third party supplements, as long as they buy Owl Bear toys (which the kids love) or tshirts.

Pretty much.
It's pretty hard to convince me of the idea that these later books will sell like the early books if WOTC doesn't care at all if I buy third party.

 

[Parmandur]

Pretty much.
It's pretty hard to convince me of the idea that these later books will sell like the early books if WOTC doesn't care at all if I buy third party.

They don't need to sell to the same people, as people turn 12 all the time

 

[tetrasodium]

Pretty much.
It's pretty hard to convince me of the idea that these later books will sell like the early books if WOTC doesn't care at all if I buy third party.

not just you & me. When a dissatisfied GM finds a system they like better the switch will drag their players along too. I don't recall any of my PF players even looking at 4e books once we jumped to that & the older 3.5 books quickly faded from use as the PF library grew.

They don't need to sell to the same people, as people turn 12 all the time

Bold of you to assume that 100% of people turning twelve who start playing d&d are exclusively within the 70% group wotc exclusively provides support to? Both the 70% & 30% groups are likely to grow at somewhat similar rates.

 

[Parmandur]

not just you & me. When a dissatisfied GM finds a system they like better the switch will drag their players along too. I don't recall any of my PF players even looking at 4e books once we jumped to that & the older 3.5 books quickly faded from use as the PF library grew.


Bold of you to assume that 100% of people turning twelve who start playing d&d are exclusively within the 70% group wotc exclusively provides support to? Both the 70% & 30% groups are likely to grow at somewhat similar rates.

I think you are maybe assuming a bit much in thinking there is a 30% group of dissatisfied customers who are looking for more.

 

[Minigiant]

They don't need to sell to the same people, as people turn 12 all the time

12 years don't have jobs and 5e's massive growth is coming from adults.