Voluntarily failing saves when spellcasters lie

[UltimaGabe]

Blech... irritating rules... can't they just work?

Of course they can. However, in general, Rule -1 (not exactly Rule 0, but still an implied rule) is to be fair to your players. If something strikes everyone at the game table as being completely unfair to the players, then it doesn't matter what the rule is- it should be discarded. The game is about having fun. If someone at the table (even if it's a single player) isn't having fun because a particular rule is unfair to him, such as by killing his character without anything he could do to resist, then that rule should be, as I said, discarded.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Hi all,

A scenario for you (not based on an actual game...yet):

Doug the fighter has finished his latest battle with significant injuries. He asks his friend Mike the cleric to heal his wounds, and Mike agrees. Unbeknown to Doug, Mike has been replaced by an evil doppelganger cleric. Instead of casting cure moderate wounds, the trickster casts Slay Living instead.

Does the fighter get a save?

My interpretation: the cure spells allow saves ... but since the spell is harmless, the recipients tend to waive those saves by default. If the doppelganger manages to cast Slay Living without arising the fighter's suspicions, the fighter forfeits his save and dies ... especially since he requested the healing magic!

I would allow the fighter an opposed Sense Motive vs. Bluff to notice any odd behaviour in the cleric, plus a Spellcraft check if he is trained in that skill. Succeeding at either check would allow him to make a save to avoid the spell effect (and force the doppelganger to make the touch attack to hit).

What do you think?

Unless you have a killer campaign where life is cheap and they have to build new PC's regularly, give the PC the edge by getting a save. Technically as you state, yes he should die but I am not one who is fond of that kind of game.

 

[Hypersmurf]

anyway it is a will save you give up NOT a fort. save
so you would still get the fort. save for the slay spell

You can voluntarily forego any saving throw. Will, Fort, or Reflex.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Unless you have a killer campaign where life is cheap and they have to build new PC's regularly, give the PC the edge by getting a save. Technically as you state, yes he should die but I am not one who is fond of that kind of game.

Actually, go back and read the thread.

Technically, he should get a save. The OP's entire question was moot.

All spells with saves get a save except harmless ones by default. Harmless spells only get a save if the target wants one (and is capable of making a decision to take one). There is no voluntarily giving up the save for Harmless spells (or non-harmless ones where the caster pretends it is a harmless one due to the target not thinking he has to give up the save).

 

[rgard]

That defeats the purpose. It's easy enough to handwave the spellcraft into a sense motive in this specific circumstance by saying that spellcasting gestures and so on are unique to the individual - so the cleric always casts Cure Light Wounds the same way, but a different cleric casts it differently. That way the fighter can reasonably be familiar with the way his friend casts the spell, without having the foggiest idea whether that other cleric is casting the same spell.

Sorry, but I agree to disagree. Spellcraft is the specific skill used to identify what spell is being cast. It's a solution available to any character. You just need some ranks in the skill.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Veril]

The dopplegangers spell is the surprise action that begins the encounter. I would allow that the touch attack from the dopple succeeds with no need to roll.

I wouldn't allow anyone to take any action to interfear with that (no combat reflexes to get an Attack of oportunity etc), but I would always give the players saving throws.

After that I would give the dopple a surprise round and I'd use player sense motive vs dopple bluff to give everyone who succeeds a surprise round as well.

As the DM I can kill the players at any time I want, by trivially overwhelming them, but that's not fun. Using cheesy you get no ST is crap as well. The only times I don't give PC's ST's is when I want them all to fail as part of the scenario. i.e. a multipart poison that is irrisistable in the food they just ate.

 

[irdeggman]

The dopplegangers spell is the surprise action that begins the encounter. I would allow that the touch attack from the dopple succeeds with no need to roll.

Not IAW with the rules for surprise.

Sorry, must be house-ruled to do so.

SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Since everyone "sees" everyone else (and in fact have been talking to each other this doe not meet the requirements for surprise.

So technically at the moment the doppleganger decides to cast the spell (as a combat spell) it becomes time for initiative.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You can voluntarily forego any saving throw. Will, Fort, or Reflex.

I just had a bad guy do that, encouraging his cleric buddy to do so likewise (free action out of turn). The PC archmage tossed a bead of force and he decided that some time protected with the bead's walls could be useful. Healing, re-buffing...the players were like, .... !

As for why the so-called 'archmage' use a measly bead o' force, well, that's a long story. The enemy was an initiate of the seven-fold veil rakshasa. It has been a long chess-like battle.

 

[eamon]

Not IAW with the rules for surprise.

Sorry, must be house-ruled to do so.

Since everyone "sees" everyone else (and in fact have been talking to each other this doe not meet the requirements for surprise.

So technically at the moment the doppleganger decides to cast the spell (as a combat spell) it becomes time for initiative.

Well, that's certainly one way of reading it! You can read it differently too though:

SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Notice the change in emphasis: sure, you're aware of your friend the cleric. What you aren't aware of is that he's actually a doppelganger: an opponent! I'd say, that's quite surprising ...

 

[irdeggman]

Well, that's certainly one way of reading it! You can read it differently too though:



Notice the change in emphasis: sure, you're aware of your friend the cleric. What you aren't aware of is that he's actually a doppelganger: an opponent! I'd say, that's quite surprising ...

Or you could go to the PHB (pg 137 under Determining Awareness to see what the context of this means). It is not contained in the SRD by the way.

It is pretty clear it is talking about knowing where someone is (hence the spot and listen checks) and being able to react to this.

Otherwise merely changing sides in an already exisitng combat entitles someone to a surprise round - but surprise rounds by their definition happen before regular combat starts

Now as to whether or not it makes sense that this could be a "surprise" situation and house-ruling it as such is an entirely different matter.