Voluntarily failing saves when spellcasters lie

[KarinsDad]

Since everyone "sees" everyone else (and in fact have been talking to each other this doe not meet the requirements for surprise.

So technically at the moment the doppleganger decides to cast the spell (as a combat spell) it becomes time for initiative.

Totally debatable.

If the PCs do not know the doppleganger IS an opponent, how can they be aware of him as an opponent? There is no sudden mystical knowledge that he is an opponent.

You own quote states "opponent". Hence, since the PCs do not know the doppleganger is an opponent, they are unaware of him as an opponent and no initiatives are rolled. Surprise round.

Or are you claiming that the PCs get some mystical knowledge before the doppleganger attacks?

 

[irdeggman]

Totally debatable.

If the PCs do not know the doppleganger IS an opponent, how can they be aware of him as an opponent? There is no sudden mystical knowledge that he is an opponent.

You own quote states "opponent". Hence, since the PCs do not know the doppleganger is an opponent, they are unaware of him as an opponent and no initiatives are rolled. Surprise round.

Or are you claiming that the PCs get some mystical knowledge before the doppleganger attacks?

Really what I am trying to say is there is no surprise round in this scenario since everyone is "aware" of everyone else.


That follows the text in the PHB (which is more detailed than the SRD). PHB pg 137 under "Determining Awareness".

 

[cheshire_grin]

This is one of those cases where the RAW depart from reality in order to simplify the game.

In reality, yes, you would be quite surprised by a "friend" turning foe, but the RAW dispense with surprise except for a single round at the beginning for simplicity.

You could houserule surprise in this case, as mentioned (and I probably would, or at least would allow the completion of the spell to start combat rather than the beginning of the spell), but it really is just a houserule and not supported by the RAW IMO.

 

[Nail]

Really what I am trying to say is there is no surprise round in this scenario since everyone is "aware" of everyone else.

...and "really" that's not the only way to read that section.

 

[KarinsDad]

Really what I am trying to say is there is no surprise round in this scenario since everyone is "aware" of everyone else.

Yes. You are interpreting the phrase "aware of their opponents" to that of "aware of the existance of their opponents" whereas I am intepreting it to mean "aware that someone actually is or might be an opponent". You are emphasizing the word "aware" whereas I am emphasizing the word "opponent". If one does not know that someone is an opponent, they are not aware of an opponent.

There could be 50 NPCs in a crowd and the PCs are aware of the existance of all 50 NPCs, but an enemy NPC in the crowd still gets a surprise round unless all of the PCs Spot that he is about to attack (or whatever). If none or only some of the PCs Spot the attack, then the Surprise round still occurs.

One doesn't say: "Well sure, he was in plain sight, so he cannot surprise you.". It's not about being visible. It's about being considered an opponent by the PCs.

It doesn't matter if the PCs are aware of the existance of the creature, they have to be aware or suspicious of the intent of the creature. Generally in a dungeon, PCs are suspicious of the intent of any creatures they see or hear. But, in the earlier example, they are not suspicious. The PCs are aware of the existance of the Doppleganger (thinking him a PC), but they are not aware that the Doppleganger is an opponent.

Since they are not aware that the Doppleganger is an opponent, that opponent gets surprise on them due to them being unaware. From the PCs perspective, there are no opponents there. Hence, they are unaware of any opponents.


This is an interpretive debate. Your interpretation does not allow for common sense situations like a PC walking up to an innkeeper he has known all of his life and suddenly stabbing him. The innkeeper is aware the PC is there, but is not expecting to be stabbed. Hence, the innkeeper is unaware of an opponent and unless he makes a Spot roll, he's surprised.

But, both interpretations are valid according to what is actually written in the PHB and the DMG. The examples in the books, however, discuss normal combat type situations where PCs are suspicious, not ones where they are not.

 

[TheBladeOfEilistraee]

This is an interpretive debate. Your interpretation does not allow for common sense situations like a PC walking up to an innkeeper he has known all of his life and suddenly stabbing him. The innkeeper is aware the PC is there, but is not expecting to be stabbed. Hence, the innkeeper is unaware of an opponent and unless he makes a Spot roll, he's surprised.

Doesn't that require a sense Motive check? If the PC has known the inkeeper all his life he would definately notice something strange in his voice, hence the Sense Motive check, esspecially if there is a hint of malice in his voice and eyes. The Spot check is merely to notice something strange, perhaps in looks.

Then again, I could be horibly mistaken...

 

[cheshire_grin]

Hm, I like that [KarinsDad's] interpretation a lot actually, it makes lots of sense. I think a Sense Motive would be more correct, unless the PC had a weapon readied (but concealed) in which case Spot and/or Sense Motive would work.

 

[irdeggman]

Back to the OP original situation.

A doppleganger has "replaced" the party cleric and then essentially turns on an injured part memebe.

The OP talked about sense motive vs bluff and disguise checks to determine the situation.

Well per the Disguise skill:

SRD

You get only one Disguise check per use of the skill, even if several people are making Spot checks against it. The Disguise check is made secretly, so that you can’t be sure how good the result is.

[quote[If you are impersonating a particular individual, those who know what that person looks like get a bonus on their Spot checks according to the table below. Furthermore, they are automatically considered to be suspicious of you, so opposed checks are always called for.[/quote]

Usually, an individual makes a Spot check to see through your disguise immediately upon meeting you and each hour thereafter. If you casually meet many different creatures, each for a short time, check once per day or hour, using an average Spot modifier for the group.

The bonuses run from +2 to +10.

A doppleganger gets a +10 to disguise checks when shape changing, an additinal +4 racial bonus and potentially an additional +4 if it can read an opponent's mind. Which will pretty much negate most if not all of the bonuses the PCs could get from "knowing" their ally and still give some pluses.

But knowing how the usual party has at least one memeber with really large Spot bonuses I find it very difficult to see how a doppleganger could decieve a party when replacing one of its members for any length of time. 1 disguise check, can't take 20 if it is based on a shape change and the fact that they become more suspicious if you fail a disguise puts the bonus for the situation at a penalty (at least the way I would read it). I have diffiuculty applyng take 10 to a shape change situation but can't see where it isn't allowed.

 

[KarinsDad]

Doesn't that require a sense Motive check? If the PC has known the inkeeper all his life he would definately notice something strange in his voice, hence the Sense Motive check, esspecially if there is a hint of malice in his voice and eyes. The Spot check is merely to notice something strange, perhaps in looks.

Either would be ok dependent on the DM. I wouldn't give two rolls. Either Sense Motive to notice that something isn't quite right, or Spot to notice the weapon being drawn.

 

[Kiehtan]

It's a fort save, which to me implys that the body, not the mind, is fighting off the effects. You can't conscioulsly tell you're body not to fight off that flu infection, it just does so. Nor can you consciously tell it to not fight off the slay living spell. The fighter doesn't need to identify the spell with spellcraft or sense motive, his body detects teh assault, and it reacts, unconsciously.

Besides, teh rules are not crystal clear enough to do it and not have resentment on the side of the players. You'd be better off killing him in his slepp while you are on watch, or usinga spell that he as a fighter is weak against, like dominate person.