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Vorpal Uber Weapons?!?

So by some miracle the basic melee damage of every longsword does 2d8 after you hit level 21 but every time you give those weapons to your lvl 1 footman he only does 1d8 damage with them. You should get a refund from that blacksmith. You see where I'm going here. The longsword only ever did 1d8 the fact that after level 21 a character does 2d8 is because of "skill". He wields the blade better it's not the blade becomes better.

Yes but the weapon damage rolled goes up. In the end, that's what we're concerned with is multiple dice being involved with damage, which comes up -often- at epic tier.

Often enough you -could- call it 'every single damage roll'.

And yes I do know that magic weapons perform better. The discussion here is that fact that applying the same effect(s) (Vorpal, GoD) on different weapons has an unbalanced effect in terms of damage on some of those weapons whereas I believe they should not nor as anyone given me a reason why they should. Yes, Yes I know "RAW".


I just did the algebra on the average weapon damage for individual die rolls that don't explode vs. die rolls that do explode.

Like right now.

Let d = the number of sides on that die.

Average die roll for a singular die that does not explode on a max roll is 1+d/2.

Average die roll for a singular die that -does- explode on a max roll is d.

The increase in damage then is equal to d - 1+d/2 = d - 1/2 - d/2 = d/2 - 1/2.

So... the increase in damage from vorpal on a single die is d/2 - 1/2.

What does this mean? This means that the larger the die size, the greater the advantage from vorpal.

For a 1d12 weapon, this turns out to be 12/2 - 1/2 = 5.5 extra damage per die.

For a 2d4 weapon, each die is individually exploding, so you get 2 X (4/2 - 1/2) = 2 X (1.5) = 3 average damage difference.

To -truly- compare, a 1d8 damage weapon's difference is (8/2 - 1/2) = (4 - 1/2) = 3.5 average damage difference.

Seems that this mysterious fear of exploding d4 damage becoming out of hand is completely unfounded based on the math.
 

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To truly understand why this works, let's look at a roll of 7 on a 1d12.

7 or more damage occurs 1/2th of the time when rolling a d12, or half.

With an exploding d4, however, you -can- get 7 damage by rolling a 4 and then rolling a 3.

This is an event that occurs 1/4 of the time X 1/2 of the time = 1/8th of the time.

And not to mention, if the d12 is exploding, the d12 is exploding with -another- d12 of damage. the d4, once it hits 12 damage (an event with only 1/64 chance of occurance) will only explode with 1d4 exploding more damage.
 

I like that it favors some weapons over others. Variety and all. Gives players meaningful choices instead of choices between a bunch of things that suck and one that doesn't. Good for the game.

On top of that, if you have a problem with a game element that is intended to be used by characters of maximum level, and that even by any variation of the math demonstrated in this post (wrong, right, or irrelevant) is relatively insignificant compared to other elements, then something has gone wrong n your game. By this time characters can become Gods! Potential infinite damage is cool, even if statistically it is rather a meager addition, but there are many other game elements that cause more wobble in game balance than this one.
 

I still don't understand in the slightest why this is a problem... maybe it's just me, but I don't see why you don't start a thread about Divine Miracle or something. Divine Miracle is overpowered. It has a large number of ways of being abused, most of which can kill Orcus in a few rounds short time. So you complain about the Vorpal weapon property, and how it is unbalanced... I don't get that at all... This is what I've been trying to say the entire time: Why do you complain about this, but not everything else that creates even the smallest imbalance. This isn't even unbalanced, IMO, but there are plenty of things that are. So why do you even care about this?

(I'm seriously looking for an answer here, btw. Is it that you don't know about those exploits?)

edit: ninja'ed
I like that it favors some weapons over others. Variety and all. Gives players meaningful choices instead of choices between a bunch of things that suck and one that doesn't. Good for the game.

On top of that, if you have a problem with a game element that is intended to be used by characters of maximum level, and that even by any variation of the math demonstrated in this post (wrong, right, or irrelevant) is relatively insignificant compared to other elements, then something has gone wrong n your game. By this time characters can become Gods! Potential infinite damage is cool, even if statistically it is rather a meager addition, but there are many other game elements that cause more wobble in game balance than this one.
This.
 



I still don't understand in the slightest why this is a problem... maybe it's just me, but I don't see why you don't start a thread about Divine Miracle or something. Divine Miracle is overpowered. It has a large number of ways of being abused, most of which can kill Orcus in a few rounds short time. So you complain about the Vorpal weapon property, and how it is unbalanced... I don't get that at all... This is what I've been trying to say the entire time: Why do you complain about this, but not everything else that creates even the smallest imbalance. This isn't even unbalanced, IMO, but there are plenty of things that are. So why do you even care about this?

(I'm seriously looking for an answer here, btw. Is it that you don't know about those exploits?)

edit: ninja'ed

This.

I drew the Vorpal lot. Why I chose to raise this issue over any other has no relevancy over the topic. I could just as easily ask you why do you care to keep replying if it of no concern for you?
 

I predict a minimum of eight pages for this one, even though someone posted the relevant quote from PHB pg. 236 on the first page, which the OP has just chosen to disbelieve. I mean, it even says damage -dice-.
 

The term, -straight- from the PHB, is 'weapon damage dice.'

Not damage die. Damage dice.

p276.

'Weapon Damage Dice: A [W] in a damage expression stands for your weapon's damage dice.'

The term, as used in the books, refers to [W] using the plural. The term in the weapon chart uses the term 'weapon damage.'

Nowhere in there does it say 'damage die' to describe a specific weapon characteristic.

So yes, misinformation.

Vorpal does not even refer to 'weapon damage'. It refers to damage, period. That means it includes sneak attack, hunter's quarry, it's own daily power, and it's own critical damage dice. So even an argument about weapon die vs. dice is irrelevant to this discussion.

As for my algebra:

Let the average die roll for an exploding die be A, and the number of sides of the die be d.

1/d of the time, the die will come up with a roll of d and you re-roll and add more damage, using the same exploding rule. This extra roll is a distinct event, and itself has an average roll of A. As an example with a d4, 1/4th of the time you're going to roll another d4, and that d4 has the same average die roll as the original, because it works -exactly the same-. The total when this event happens is equal to the original die roll (you still get the 4 you rolled on a d4) plus any additional dice.

d-1/d of the time, dice work just as they normally do. The average damage for this is simple to calculate. You take the minimum damage, plus the maximum damage, and divide that by 2. It's pretty much the same as if you rolled a (d-1) sided die.

Converting this to an equation you get:

Code:
A = (average damage of dice when not exploding X probability of not exploding) + (average damage of dice when exploding X probability of exploding)

A = [(1+d-1)/2  X  (d-1)/d] + (d + A)/d

A = [d/2 X (d-1)/d] + [1 X (d + A)/d]

A = [d(d-1)/2d] + [2/2 X (d + A)/d]

A = [d(d-1)/2d] + [2(d+A)/2d]

A = [(d^2 - d)/ 2d] + [(2d + 2A)/ 2d]

A = (d^2 - d + 2d + 2A) / 2d

2dA = d^2 + d + 2A

2dA - 2A = d^2 + d

A = [d^2 + d]/[2d-2]

My initial calculations were wrong, sadly. Flipped a negative sign.

And I admit my mistake there.

This is how the average damage of an exploding weapon turns out:

1d4 = 10 damage
1d6 = 10.5
1d8 = 12
1d10 = 13.75
1d12 = 15.6

I'm willing to say then that the average damage for a vorpal 2d4 weapon is more than the average damage for a vorpal 1d12 damage weapon by 4.4 damage per [W].

However... is this intentional that a high crit weapon will do more damage vorpally than a non-high crit weapon, not taking crit effects into consideration? It just might be.



Regardless, the vorpal property does not refer to weapon damage dice, or weapon damage die, but 'any damage die'.

That's the operative word. -ANY- damage die.

Bonus dice from Sneak attack? That's damage dice.
Bonus dice from Vorpal's power? Damage dice.
Bonus dice from critting with it? Damage dice.
Bonus dice from critting with it if it were a high crit weapon? Damage dice.
Bonus dice from -any- source? Damage dice.

The [W] portion of the weapon's damage is therefore irrelevant to this discussion entirely.

Another use of damage dice in a power:

Staff of Fiery Might.

Are you saying that if a minotaur uses a clerical power with it that has the Fire Keyword and the Weapon keyword, say Avenging Flame (does 2[W] fire damage)... that with a +1 Staff of Fiery Might, he'd get to reroll whichever 2 dice displeased him? Or that he has to roll his dice in bursts, each individually?

In order for Vorpal to work the way you claim it does, you'd have to roll each 2d4 for the falchion seperately, otherwise the player'd just mix and match dice willy nilly to get the same benefit as if you didn't allow each die to explode.

In other words... the power cannot feasibly work in execution the way you want it to. Therefore it -must- work in the way it is worded.
 

Nowhere in there does it say 'damage die' to describe a specific weapon characteristic.

So yes, misinformation.

So what is your explanation for the p219 quote? Is p219 incorrect?

Regardless, the vorpal property does not refer to weapon damage dice, or weapon damage die, but 'any damage die'.

That's the operative word. -ANY- damage die.

Right. And according to p219, for a falchion, 2d4 is a damage die.

Vorpal property refers to "any damage die", and in the case of the falchion, 2d4 is a damage die, so 2d4 falls under the "any damage die" description.

In order for Vorpal to work the way you claim it does, you'd have to roll each 2d4 for the falchion seperately...

Sounds like a plan to me. Since we have a solution, why do you consider this a problem?

-Hyp.
 

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