Vow of Poverty - Exact Wording (Semiexact :P)

[Callista]

The wording is, "If you break your vow." Circumstances which are not under your control and which you can neither predict nor prevent don't count as YOU breaking the vow. I'd say it's a job for an Atonement, since I imagine the kind of character who had made a vow of poverty would probably also be the kind of character to want to atone for even involuntarily breaking a vow. Exalted characters tend to be pretty scrupulous like that.

Vow of Peace says it explicitly: If you intentionally break the vow, you lose it forever; if you unintentionally break it, you atone. I think the writers of the Vow of Poverty feat simply didn't think about the possibility that the vow could be broken unintentionally, such as if a character were knocked out (or otherwise restrained) and given something of value.

Vow of Poverty should be much the same way, really. Plus, it would be a really nasty way for an evil-mastermind type to torture an ascetic character--force him to use a magical item and break his vow (which, most likely, is deeply important to him). It's nearly as bad as killing hostages in front of someone who's vowed to protect the innocent. But it wouldn't be viable if you lost the benefits of the feat permanently instead of just until you could get an atonement spell (and possibly do the accompanying quest), because if you lost it permanently against your will that would just mean the DM was a bit of a jerk.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A feat that you can lose if the enemy knocks you unconscious and places a Cloak of Resistance on you, and which does not allow for atonement, seems to be a bad idea.

Actually, that scenario doesn't trigger the loss: the ascetic in question has not "borrow(ed) a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion...", nor has he acted with volition. Indeed, the ascetic's only act has been to lie on the ground, concussed & out cold.

As I said elsewhere, the feat is poorly written and doesn't make sense RAW:

In another thread (which I can't search for, nor do I have the link anymore), I posted all the PHB spells that would be excised from a VoP caster's repetoir if VoP is run RAW. If you're a religious person, that list would look extremely counterintuitive: essentially, the VoP PC swears fealty to a higher power...who then strips the PC of the ability to affect undead or cast spells that are core to the concept of the duties religious heirarchies owe their followers (like Bless or Attonement).

 

[BENINHB]

A feat that you can lose if the enemy knocks you unconscious and places a Cloak of Resistance on you, and which does not allow for atonement, seems to be a bad idea.

If a DM ever did that to me i would for sure leave their game. That is vindictive, targeted and metagaming all rolled into one. If you don't want a VoP character as a DM just ban it. Don't punish the player like that.


Side note: What if a character with VoP uses the snatch arrow feat against a master work or magic weapon??


What if a character with VoP makes and unarmed disarm against a enemies +1 dagger and succeeds, would they lose the feat??

 

[Dandu]

I admit that was an extreme example, but VoP is a problematic feat in that it's really up to the DM to adjudicate what happens if you wind up with something you're not allowed to have.

 

[Callista]

Side note: What if a character with VoP uses the snatch arrow feat against a master work or magic weapon??


What if a character with VoP makes and unarmed disarm against a enemies +1 dagger and succeeds, would they lose the feat??

I would say that, since dropping the object is a free action, both of these actions can be made to knock the object out of the air or out of your opponent's hand, rather than ending up holding it.

 

[Jack Simth]

As I said elsewhere, the feat is poorly written and doesn't make sense RAW:

Yeah. But it's trivially easy to get the list, thanks to d20srd.org's Spell Filter (which is actually run on Pen, Paper, & Pixel, but whatever):

* Aid
* Air Walk
* Align Weapon
* Antilife Shell
* Antimagic Field
* Atonement
* Bane
* Bear's Endurance
* Bear's Endurance, Mass
* Bless
* Bull's Strength
* Bull's Strength, Mass
* Calm Emotions
* Commune
* Comprehend Languages
* Consecrate
* Control Water
* Darkness
* Death Ward
* Deeper Darkness
* Delay Poison
* Desecrate
* Detect Chaos
* Detect Evil
* Detect Good
* Detect Law
* Detect Undead
* Discern Lies
* Discern Location

* Dismissal
* Dispel Chaos
* Dispel Evil
* Dispel Good
* Dispel Law
* Divine Favor
* Divine Power
* Doom
* Eagle's Splendor
* Eagle's Splendor, Mass
* Earthquake
* Flame Strike
* Forbiddance
* Freedom of Movement
* Gentle Repose
* Giant Vermin
* Hallow
* Helping Hand
* Heroes' Feast
* Hide from Undead
* Hold Person
* Imbue with Spell Ability
* Insect Plague
* Light
* Locate Object
* Magic Circle against Chaos
* Magic Circle against Evil
* Magic Circle against Good
* Magic Circle against Law

* Magic Stone
* Magic Vestment
* Magic Weapon
* Magic Weapon, Greater
* Mark of Justice
* Meld into Stone
* Neutralize Poison
* Owl's Wisdom
* Owl's Wisdom, Mass
* Planar Ally
* Planar Ally, Greater
* Planar Ally, Lesser
* Poison
* Prayer
* Protection from Chaos
* Protection from Energy
* Protection from Evil
* Protection from Good
* Protection from Law
* Raise Dead
* Regenerate
* Repel Vermin
* Repulsion
* Resist Energy
* Resistance
* Resurrection
* Righteous Might
* Sanctuary
* Scrying

* Sending
* Shatter
* Sound Burst
* Speak with Dead
* Spell Immunity
* Spell Immunity, Greater
* Spell Resistance
* Spiritual Weapon
* Stone Shape
* Summon Monster I
* Summon Monster II
* Summon Monster III
* Summon Monster IV
* Summon Monster IX
* Summon Monster V
* Summon Monster VI
* Summon Monster VII
* Summon Monster VIII
* True Resurrection
* Undeath to Death
* Virtue
* Wall of Stone
* Water Breathing
* Water Walk
* Wind Walk
* Wind Wall
* Zone of Truth

That's just a quick search on spells that include a Divine Focus (which an Ascetic isn't permitted to have, as written).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

That's just a quick search on spells that include a Divine Focus (which an Ascetic isn't permitted to have, as written).

Which is stupid, especially in the case of a druid where the divine focus is FREE. I haven't met many DMs that actually think you shouldn't be able to have a divine focus with VoP; for sure I'd never ever play a VoP cleric or druid in a game with one who does think that.

 

[Jack Simth]

Which is stupid, especially in the case of a druid where the divine focus is FREE.

Agreed. But that's how it's written. Now, if the Vow of Poverty said something along the lines of 'you can have 10 gp worth of possessions', that'd be a different story. But that's not what they said. Likewise, exactly as written, the Vow of Poverty ascetic has no limit on the number of 50 gp Heavy Crossbows the Ascetic is permitted to have. So theoretically, such an Ascetic could own enough weapons to outfit a sizable army. There's lots of ridiculousness when you use the thing exactly as written. I suspect there might be a reason that particular book says it's intended for mature audiences.

I haven't met many DMs that actually think you shouldn't be able to have a divine focus with VoP; for sure I'd never ever play a VoP cleric or druid in a game with one who does think that.

I *might*... if I were playing a Cleric of the Sovereign Host, and got a particular feat specific to the Sovereign Host - Worldly Focus.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My main thing is that, if run RAW, VoP violates it's own internal logic...for divine PCs, if not others.

 

[Callista]

There's a workaround for the valuable material components and focuses for spells. Check BoED p.30; you can use your friends' material components to cast the spell (presumably, you're casting it for their benefit rather than yours), or you can use XP to cast the spell instead at a conversion rate of 1 XP per 5 gp.