Vow of Poverty: Power Analysis

[Scion]

Point buy, but wanting/needing to have about 4 decent/high stats (15 or higher) is very rough, effectively impossible

 

[Zimri]

Yes thats why I prefer rolling. wis/dex/cha are more important to a VoP monk (IMHO) than strength (yes you lose some to damage but the exalted strike makes up for some of that and intuitive strike focuses your attack roll on a key stat) Int was a monk dump stat mostly anyway and nymphs kiss adds +1 skill each level. More con is always good though definately don't want a negative there.

 

[mecra]

Not to bring back the dead, but I have a few things to say about this topic.

First off, the monetary analysis of the feat is neat, but not all entirely accurate.

While it does give a base monetary value for some of the items a character will have, it doesn't really deal with epic or artifact level items (like Scion weapons) that add a lot more to the character than just a basic ability or fighting enhancement. While it does account for some things, it doesn't take into account these higher level items that could be handed out like candy depending on the GM.

Plus, a character like this can't own scrolls, potions, or the like. My group has been SAVED by their potions and scrolls to the point where EVERYONE carries what they can. No go for the VoP character. Yes he has more "value" at certain times, but don't forget the disposable/utility items that a party will hoard, find, or create along the way. There is a character that has three weapons that all do different things depending on teh foe he's fighting. (Undead, construct, etc)

Also, what about casting items that have spells in them? Weapons that have spells in them? Items that have spells in them? The point is that breakdown does cover the abilities of the VoP, but it does NOT account for all disposable items, all odd items, or all epic/artifact items that a character could get over time. What about items that don't have bonuses like the VoP, but do things the VoP will never do? (Rods/items for climbing, swimming, flying, teleporting, sundering, invisibility, etc.)

Plus, as a person has said, if a player that isn't a VoP gets an item better than his own, he can sell his older item for money. (Most GMs would allow this.) While the resale value of said item may not be that high, it allows the player to re-purchase scrolls, potions, etc.

I'm sorry, but I will have to disagree that the VoP is overpowered or worth more. It does give some nice benefits, but you lose a SIGNIFICANT amount of utility and versatility(sp). You get nice brute force abilities and resistances, but you lack the diversity that a well equipped character can have if he plays his cards right. I like the VoP because I don't like worrying about magical items and I like playing Exalted characters. It's a good fit for me and my Psion. I will agree several classes benefit MORE, but that is up to the GM to balance that out if he/she wishes.

So, good analysis, but not general nor all encompassing enough to convince me that VoP is too powerful. There are just too many other factors that haven't been calculated that normal characters have available that throw the curve off.

 

[Scion]

Scion weapons?

 

[Pax]

While it does give a base monetary value for some of the items a character will have, it doesn't really deal with epic or artifact level items (like Scion weapons) that add a lot more to the character than just a basic ability or fighting enhancement.

The Vow of Poverty, as written, assumes there's no such thing as Epic items. epic items require an Epic gaming environment, which means, someone has 21+ levels - even if it's just an NPC somewhere in a remote dungeon or other. But, the VoP is written for an environment where 20 levels is it, the end, thou canst not pass.

and ... artifacts ... ? SURELY, you jest!

While it does account for some things, it doesn't take into account these higher level items that could be handed out like candy depending on the GM.

Nor does it account for those GMs who're so stingy, that it's hell and beyond to get them to part with more than a few copper pieces, let alone *gasp* an actual magic item. (Yes, I've played with both sorts of GMs; heck, I've BEEN both sorts of GM!)

Plus, a character like this can't own scrolls, potions, or the like. My group has been SAVED by their potions and scrolls to the point where EVERYONE carries what they can. No go for the VoP character. Yes he has more "value" at certain times, but don't forget the disposable/utility items that a party will hoard, find, or create along the way.

and those potions, scrolls, and whatever - until they're used up - count against their owner's "total treasure value", a.k.a. "wealth by character level". If you're making a character that's starting at, say, 15th level ... and you get 20Kgp of potions and scrolls ... you have 180K "left" for the rest of your gear.

The same should hold true for a character that gets to 15th level the hard way, too.

Also, what about casting items that have spells in them?

They cost money to get, which means other gear you don't have (for thenon-ascetic). And either you're hiring someone to cast the spell into said item, or it cost a LOT more because it's self-renewing, or it's party resources that're being spent refilling it if a PC 'caster does the work.

Weapons that have spells in them?

See above.

Items that have spells in them?

Ditto.

The point is that breakdown does cover the abilities of the VoP, but it does NOT account for all disposable items, all odd items, or all epic/artifact items that a character could get over time.

Actually, yes it does. Every disposable item counts against a character's then-current "expected wealth" for a character of their level. Epic items are all priced, and count against that same expected wealth.

And counting on ARTIFACTS to "balance" the Vow ... that's just plain silly!

What about items that don't have bonuses like the VoP, but do things the VoP will never do? (Rods/items for climbing, swimming, flying, teleporting, sundering, invisibility, etc.)

Sucks to be the ascetic. What about characters who never GET said items?

What about characters who can't mimick some ofhte abilities you get with the VoP? If you sunder the Ascetic's allowed simple weapon, and he picks up a new one ... it's immediately plus-whatever again.

Not so with a non-ascetic; if you take THEIR magic weapon away, and they pick up a replacement ... if it wasn't magical before they grabbed it, it still isn't after they grab it. Exalted Strike is a very nice ability!

Plus, as a person has said, if a player that isn't a VoP gets an item better than his own, he can sell his older item for money. (Most GMs would allow this.) While the resale value of said item may not be that high, it allows the player to re-purchase scrolls, potions, etc.

And said resale "profit" counts against your allowed/expected wealth by level.

 

[mecra]

Unfortunately, I call "nonsense" about this "expected wealth" notion. There is NO WAY to regulate exactly how much a character is going to make in a campaign. What if the campaign has many dragons? What if the Terrasque is plaguing a kingdom and the character party defeats it? (Thus getting a MASSIVE reward from the King himself.) Or what if it was a Dragon attacking the Kingdom and thus the party got loot from the dragon AND the reward from the King. (Through good roleplaying and a very difficult encounter.)

The point is, the "expected wealth" idea is just a lowball value that doesn't account for all elements and things a party will get or acquire free of charge. Yes you can be a stingy GM, but I won't play for you. D&D is all about items, magic, and monsters. To deny players items and such, you are denying them access to about 1/2 of what the game is. (IMO)

Plus, once the party actually gets to 20th level or higher, they deserve to start getting an ancient item or two. (20th is MASSIVE!) Heck, your supposed to be able to take on a Terrasque.. try to tell me that you're supposed to do that without a few MAJOR items.

The point is, I don't agree with the "expected wealth" idea ANYWAY so thus I don't subscribe to the notion that this value is a hardset one that should determine EXACTLY what a character is SUPPOSED to have throughout his career or determine how balanced a different class is. Again, the numbers are good, but there still isn't enough accounted to convince me. I've roleplayed for over 10 years and I have NEVER seen a stingy GM. Heck, everyone around here is sometimes WAY too generous with high level items. That's a different story though.

 

[Thanee]

Expected wealth is an evaluation tool for the DM, nothing more, nothing less.

It gives a figure, which the DM can use to base the treasure, the party finds, on, which the DM has FULL CONTROL over at all times.

Thus, a DM that tries to go by the power level, which the whole D&D ruleset is based upon, would keep an eye on how much treasure the party has aquired, when placing new treasure hoards or deciding upon rewards.

Campaigns, where this is not done, are arguably the ones, where the VoP is either highly over- or underpowered. When the wealth is about the suggested level, the VoP is pretty balanced, I'm quite sure about that.

Bye
Thanee

 

[The Souljourner]

Unfortunately, I call "nonsense" about this "expected wealth" notion. There is NO WAY to regulate exactly how much a character is going to make in a campaign.

Umm... what? The DM has ABSOLUTE control over the entire world. You're saying he can't control what the party brings in?

What if the campaign has many dragons?

Then the DM put them there. He has control over that.

What if the Terrasque is plaguing a kingdom and the character party defeats it? (Thus getting a MASSIVE reward from the King himself.)

Then the DM put it there, and decided if the King would reward them, and how much.

Or what if it was a Dragon attacking the Kingdom and thus the party got loot from the dragon AND the reward from the King. (Through good roleplaying and a very difficult encounter.)

Again, the DM put it there, and decided how much loot the dragon has and how much the King would reward them.

The point is, the "expected wealth" idea is just a lowball value that doesn't account for all elements and things a party will get or acquire free of charge.

No, it's a guideline for the DM to keep his players balanced with the CRs of monsters they fight. And it does account for all wealth, regardless of where it comes from.

Yes you can be a stingy GM, but I won't play for you. D&D is all about items, magic, and monsters. To deny players items and such, you are denying them access to about 1/2 of what the game is. (IMO)

No one is talking about being a stingy DM. They're talking about giving out what the DMG recommends for treasure for a standard party.

Plus, once the party actually gets to 20th level or higher, they deserve to start getting an ancient item or two.

It's already been mentioned that VoP isn't expected to work at Epic levels.

I don't subscribe to the notion that this value is a hardset one that should determine EXACTLY what a character is SUPPOSED to have throughout his career

That's your perogative, but the game was designed with those numbers in mind. A CR 12 fight is designated CR 12 based on 4 12th level adventurers with nearly standard wealth. No one's saying every character must have exactly the right amount of wealth... but +- 10% isn't unreasonable.

I've roleplayed for over 10 years and I have NEVER seen a stingy GM. Heck, everyone around here is sometimes WAY too generous with high level items.

Obviously, you always play with a certain kind of DM who likes to give out lots of treasure. I've played with both kinds of DMs - those that give out a lot, and those that give out hardly any. I've been 8th level with about 3000gp worth of magic items, and I've been 8th level with over 100,000gp worth of magic items. I can tell you that the latter party required challenges far exceeding our level.

-The Souljourner

 

[Pax]

Unfortunately, I call "nonsense" about this "expected wealth" notion. There is NO WAY to regulate exactly how much a character is going to make in a campaign.

ROFLMAO! You're calling one fo the basic principles of handlign character wealth, as set forth in the DMG, nonsense? you're claiming it'snot possible to TRACK that? ROFLMAO, of course there's a way to do that!

IMC - and I do mean the regular campaign I run face-to-face, not the Exodus arena - I keep track of what each individual character has, as well as the party average.

If the party average is low, and noone has significantly more than their own individual expected wealth, I increase out the amount of coin, art, gem, jewelry, and commodity treasures the party can acquire. If it's a specific character who's falling behind, I put in an item or items of especial interest to that character.

Conversely, if the party as a whole, or someone in particular, is too far AHEAD of the expected curve, I take the OPPOSITE stance - less value in coin and saleable goods, less items of specific interest to that character, and so on.

As GM, I am in absolute control of every last bent copper piece that is or is not introduced into my campaign.

If you want to call THAT nonsense, then I'll have to ask what sort cockamamie, bass-ackwards house rule campaign structure you're using, 'cause what I'm doing is exactly what the DMG describes.

What if the campaign has many dragons?

then they're poorer than the MM indicates.

What if the Terrasque is plaguing a kingdom and the character party defeats it? (Thus getting a MASSIVE reward from the King himself.)

Then the party has either just come OUt of a "dry spell" WRT treasure, or they'd best expect to go into one.

Or what if it was a Dragon attacking the Kingdom and thus the party got loot from the dragon AND the reward from the King. (Through good roleplaying and a very difficult encounter.)

No king, no matter how much "good roleplaying" the players pull off, will give them a monetarily valuable reward AND let them keep the dragon'sloot. Other, MAYBE, than waiving them from the usual TAXATION on their newfound wealth.

Heck, he may begin to see them as a THREAT to his OWN authority, and seek to do away with them.

The point is, the "expected wealth" idea is just a lowball value that doesn't account for all elements and things a party will get or acquire free of charge.

No, actually, it's not a LOWBALL anything. It's the AVERAGE, which you should expect to achieve if the game you're in isplayed by the rules. You seem to think that money can fall form the sky, wether the GM likes it or not. Feh.

Yes you can be a stingy GM, but I won't play for you. D&D is all about items, magic, and monsters. To deny players items and such, you are denying them access to about 1/2 of what the game is. (IMO)

Ah, I see. A munchkin who's never played anything but a Monty Haul game. Now I begin to understand.

The Expected Wealth is based on the expected average number of equal-CR/EL encounters, and the average results for treasure in return for each encounter, with a little shaved off the top for things like living expenses and similar costs.

And the rules for treasure explicitly direct a GM to reduce or even eliminate treasure - or add some where none is warranted at all - in order to keep the party on that expected wealth level.

The measure of CRs for creatures, in fact, depends on not being too far out of balance ... either way. If a party is too poor, monsters become more challenging than they're listed. If hte party is too wealthy, the opposite occurs.

Plus, once the party actually gets to 20th level or higher, they deserve to start getting an ancient item or two. (20th is MASSIVE!) Heck, your supposed to be able to take on a Terrasque.. try to tell me that you're supposed to do that without a few MAJOR items.

Seeing as I run an EPIC arena, don't preach tome about what 20th level and higher is or isn't.

Getting a big item? Sure; how about an adamantine +5 vorpal Greatsword ... ? That's 203,350gp right there, nearly one-third of what any 20th level character should have at any one time.

Butif you expect a 20th level character to have FOU of those, and a wagonfull of potions, scrolls,adn wands, and a castle manned by well-equipped soldiers, and two dozen miscellaneous items of significant power, and two entire suits of +5 heavy fortification armor, AND an artifact or two ...

...

... you need to stop smoking whatever it is you're on, and rejoin the rest ofthe gaming world.

The point is, I don't agree with the "expected wealth" idea ANYWAY so thus I don't subscribe to the notion that this value is a hardset one that should determine EXACTLY what a character is SUPPOSED to have throughout his career or determine how balanced a different class is.

Sorry for you, but you can agree or not - but it's how the gameis WRITTEN. So when discussing the game as written, you have to accept the Expected Wealth rules, even ifyou dislike them.

I've roleplayed for over 10 years and I have NEVER seen a stingy GM. Heck, everyone around here is sometimes WAY too generous with high level items. That's a different story though.

No, it's not a different story - butit's a very TELLING story, indeed. If you, yourself admit that your experience has solely been with exceptionally generous GMs, you have no grounds on which to argue against the rules-as-written expected average wealth, which was calculated form what the rules say an average person will get from the average number of encounters needed to advance to each listed level.

 

[mecra]

Wow Pax... did I step on your poor wittle footsie?

*laugh* I see how it is. I post my opinions, and you insult, slander, and belittle me. Ummm... someone other than me REALLY needs a reality check here. I re-read what I said, and I only said a couple things in sarcasm, yet I am blasted by you? On the defensive are we? Lacking in social etiquette are we? Maybe you should let someone ELSE GM for a bit so you can cool down. And if you actually read one of my previous posts, you would see that I am not a munchkin... yes I make sure my characters are good, but I take the VoP because it allows me to not be concerned with magical items and just focus on roleplaying and trying to be exalted. That's hardly munchkin.

Oh, and it's VERY EASY to not have control over a party's loot and "expected wealth." Apparenlty you have never had a campaign that switched GMs at key plot points? You've never just run a scenario, then have a DIFFERENT GM run one next time with the same characters? Now, say your group has three different GMs with six different players... belittlements aside I think you can see where I am going with this. If you are in a group that has ONE and ONLY ONE GM, then you could absolutely control everything. But don't expect us with multiple GMs to keep spreadsheets of all our characters just so each GM doesn't give more than allocated amount. That would be a book keeping nightmare for all three GMs and the six players. So, don't expect us to have to all follow your examples just because you are jaded against the VoP. Oh, and let me not forget to mention that we usually are missing 1-2 players per week. Again, we're not going to number crunch just for the sake of crunching and someone said somewhere that we had to. We play it, "by ear."

If you think the DM's guide is fact, then guess what... every book they write after that is fact! If you don't like the VoP, I can find someone that doesn't like the "expected wealth" rule. Its a horse apiece. You want me to fully adhere to the expected wealth and have to surrender to your version of the VoP? Why don't you surrender to MY version of the E.W??

WotC wrote the book, they tested the book with their testers and their special forum, and they put in rules and such that keep people from abusing the rules to a reasonably degree. (It does say in the VoP that if you do hoard an item, you LOSE all of the effects of the VoP with it NEVER returning no matter how many feats you take.) Sounds like to me if you stray from the strict roleplaying elements of the vow, you lose it and all that precious leveling you just now wasted without gaining monetary gain. A normal player doesn't suffer from such roleplaying restrictions.