VP/WP system and spells (help)

[jester47]

In the VP/WP system in UA it is said that attacks take VP before they take WP. Crits go right to wound points. VP represents the ability to turn a potentially nasty blow into one that is relatively harmless. It is never implied that it means a miss. The blow lands but it has been minimised in some way. Thats great for weapons.

But what about spells?

Lightening bolts really don't have glancing blows. Fire goes directly to wounds on creatures with regeneration. As does acid.

So if a flask of acid or fire damage does a dice worth of damage to a regenerating creature wouldn't a fireball do the same? And if thats true wouldn't a fire ball damage a normal creature or character in the same way? That is go direct to wounds?

This might make spellcasters too powerful. I would like some input and suggestions on this. Thanks

 

[jester47]

The only thing I can think of is that the character rolls with it somehow. In the case of a lightening bolt, the character simply feel the jolt of electricity (maybe hes properly grounded at the right instant) and only gets to feel like he is a conductor for a bit with no serious burns. Or the character is able to turn his back and duck just before the fireball hits. The paladin has to be more careful now that there is acid on her armor and clothes. The rogue is able to move with the force of the magic missles that have slammed into his body.

But that that sort of sets up a double standard. But then again, regeneration has to work that way. So its a trade off, regenerating creatures are nigh-indestructable except when using fire, acid or the like. So normal folks get to use thier vitality to fend off the effects of acid and fire.

Another way to handle it I suppose is to limit spell damage in some way... but thats really no fun.

Any other suggestions?

Aaron.

 

[clark411]

Allowing damaging spells to go directly to wounds would turn most campaigns into a slaughter house. A character's wounds don't increase per level, so a 5d6 fireball dealing its average damage of 15 will drop anyone with less than 15 Con, level 2 or level 20. Even with stackable feats that allow players to gain more Wounds points (variant toughness feats), the power of spellcasters would always increase at a faster rate (by level) that feats could not compensate for. Not to mention you'd have players with absolutely no feats beyond toughness.

Having spells hit vitality first is no different than having spells cut through HP normally. A fighter with 80 hp will be pretty unscathed by a 30 pt fireball even if he fails his reflex save. A fighter with 76 Vit / 14 Wounds who is now 46 / 14 is pretty equally damaged.

Mechanically, there's little difference until Sorcerors with Rays and Touch attacks start getting weapon focuses and Improved Criticals... so that their arsenal has a better chance of going straight to wounds. In terms of flavor, nothing's changed in that a Lightning Bolt 5 ft in diameter pouring through target after target seems to have little effect... it's just the DND way, no different than trying to explain that an arrow that dealt 15 damage and solidly hit someone didn't kill him, or that a critical swording for 48 damage didn't skewer someone in half. It'd be cruel to describe to a player how a foe "turned aside" the crit or the max damage arrow simply because it did only dropped 1/3 of their foe's hp... I'd chalk it up to DND characters and monsters being tough as nails.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Option 1 (deadly, but nice)

If a character fumbles a saving throw against a damaging spell (rolls a 1 and then fails again on a reroll) then the damage goes straight to wounds.

This is a nice option because it means that a fireball is always a risky proposition to be hit by.

Option 2 (less instantly deadly, but more harmful in general usage)

For every die of damage that a damaging spell does, inflict 1 wound point

Option 3 (standard deadliness, easiest to do)

Damaging spells always take off vitality first and wounds when all vitality has gone. Redefine regeneration as Fast Healing but with the limitation that wounds caused by fire and acid (or whatever is the bete noir for that creature) cannot be healed by fast healing.

(to my mind that is a much more sensible way of handling regeneration full stop, actually)

 

[jester47]

Actually, I think I am going to keep it as it is. Just because a character looses VP to a fireball does not mean it does not hurt. Hes singed a bit, the armor is warm, So he goes from feeling ok to feeling pretty darned uncomfortable... I want to keep the regeneration as is because it makes trolls major deadly. Unless you have a good stock of oil or acid, or maybe even a good mage you have a lot to worry about. My campiagn is Silver Marches FR and it would add some serious flavor.

Though I must say I like option 2 (I also came up with that one). I think what I might do is have damage from spells work out where you take the number of dice in WP and the ammount rolled on the dice in VP. If your VP drops to 0 you start taking WP again. This really makes sense to me.

However, wound points (even one) cause a drop in Dex and Str and can stun someone. That really make magic missile "kinda neat." So even at tenth level, one missile from magic missile can put off a 10th level fighter for the rest of the day. But maybe thats not so bad... Then again think about the fact that a wand of magic missiles could take out anyone at any level, and you see how you might have to start reworking spells.

Or then again- it could just be that it flattens the playing field and "level" becomes less of a factor in the game and really just a measurement more of acomplishment than actual power.

I AM trying to make a world where anyone can go down at ANY time. Right now the way I have the crits set up a 10th level ftr can be done in by a lucky 1st level kobold warrior. My players like that idea and understand that it can go both ways, so all is good there.

So yeah, my version of option 2 might actually work best for what I want to do. I will have to run it by the players and see what they think.

Thanks.

Aaron.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

In the past I've played it that for every die that came up with the max number (ie '6' on a d6), it inflicted 1pt of wound damage. Healing magic was rather rare in that campaign, so the nickel and dime stuff added up pretty quick. Plus it made low die-damage weapons a little more dangerous.

 

[Aezoc]

IMC we use option #3 because its by far the easiest to keep track of and to balance spells against. If you're worried about the realism aspect of it, describe VP loss along the same lines that you would if the character had used Evasion instead of just sucking up the damage with his VP. You might still want to differentiate between the two for the player (unless you like being a rat bastard DM), but to the character, I'd think they appear about the same. My players tend to be sticklers for realism, and they're happy with this. Just remember that under this system, regaining VP through Regeneration and Fast Healing simulates having a nearly tireless opponent, rather than someone whose mortal wounds magically keep healing.

 

[Suldulin]

the game I'm in uses the house rule that spells which can crit (ie touch and range touch) deal 1 wound point/damage die in addition to the normal vp damage

 

[jester47]

the game I'm in uses the house rule that spells which can crit (ie touch and range touch) deal 1 wound point/damage die in addition to the normal vp damage

I thought about that and it occured to me that if a spell can crit, it should not get auto wounds.

so since spells that can crit can do wp damage they don't need to be covered like the spells that don't require a to hit roll.

A.

 

[jester47]

I ran the rule by my players. And since we are sort of in a hiatus, I am going to take some of the group and test out this rule (and others) in play. When I explained it to soe of them and explained the predicted game effect, they seemed to like the idea. So we will see...

Aaron.