Wall of Force - How tight the seal?

[rushlight]

Unbroken just means you can't have a hole in it nor can you have it completely split down the middle by something.

I'd say it reflects all sound... in order for sound to go through it, it would need to vibrate, and somehow I just don't see a force effect vibrating. Since it's perfectly rigid, the soundwaves would just bounce off.

Your logic is sound. But I believe that your conclusion is questionable.

While I can agree that the Wall wouldn't vibrate with sound - but the surrounding surfaces would. If the Wall seals in a natural cavern, the vibration of the stone that transverses the Wall would be minor, but probably enough to hear muffled sound from one side to the other in a quiet environment. For surfaces with less rigidity, the sound volume would naturally increase.

Game effect - as long as you're in a quiet environment, you can talk from one side to the other.

 

[apsuman]

Your logic is sound. But I believe that your conclusion is questionable.

I think you are both nuts.

D&D is MAGIC. As much as I want to apply my math/science knowledge to the world of D&D it does not work. Now, in your campaign, you can have it that way if you want, and as long as all the players are on the same page.

I would let sound through. But that's just me.

D&D is a man made (and btw, simple) system. And all man made systems have imperfections.

For example: Wall of Force says that spells can not pass through, but gaze attacks can. So, intellignet people can have legitimate disagreements about how the following spells would work if the caster and the target are on opposite sides of the wall (if the wall is not a tight seal):

Comprehend Languages
Detect Secret Doors
Detect Undead
Charm Person
Hypnotism
Sleep
Color Spray
Magic Aura
Cause Fear


And those are just first level spells.

All this, IMHO.

 

[Sejs]

no air.

As a DM, I'd say air would get thru mainly just to keep Forcecage from being the 'You just frickin die' spell. Solid forcecage, no slots, air can't get thru, spell lasts many many hours, oxygen runs out before the spell lapses, nothing you can do about it, make a new character.

 

[The Souljourner]

Nah... you can't cast anything targeting something on the opposite side of the wall, because it blocks line of effect. Also, because it is impervious to magic, the area of detect spells should stop at it too.

I really don't see why any of those spells would "go through" the wall, except comprehend languages, which has nothing to do with anyone but yourself. You're the one comprehending.

As for sound going through it, rushlight has a good point about vibrations through the wall... it would be *really* muffled though. I'd say -20 on listen checks, and you'd have to be next to the wall/floor and practically shouting to really have a conversation. Stone doesn't exactly vibrate that much either.

-The Souljourner

 

[The Souljourner]

As a DM, I'd say air would get thru mainly just to keep Forcecage from being the 'You just frickin die' spell. Solid forcecage, no slots, air can't get thru, spell lasts many many hours, oxygen runs out before the spell lapses, nothing you can do about it, make a new character.

This actually happened to me once. I at first just said "crap, fine I wait x hours" but then we realized I'd run out of air first... so I started with the dispel magics. Luckily I was able to make it.

But yeah, I can see how that would seem unfair. Problem is, if it doesn't stop air, then it doesn't stop poisonous gases, and I really think it should. Maybe you could just rule it only allows pure air through, effectively filtering out anything harmful. That would make it at least a somewhat interesting defensive spell a la Phantom Menace "let me sit here and meditate while you pace back and forth waiting to kill me".

-The Souljourner

 

[RangerWickett]

I think a solid seal makes the spell more fun, and it doesn't overpower the spell, so that's better than an uneven fit. But the rules as written seem to imply an uneven fit, even though that seemingly makes it weaker than wall of stone.

Here's an example. Do you remember Star Trek: Generations? Picard is trapped outside that giant wall of force, but he spots an area where a rock over a pit creates a passage that goes under the wall. The wall of force can't go through a rock, so if, say, you had a small metal hoop in the floor, the force would touch walls, ceiling, and most of the floor except for the hoop, which it would go around. People could crawl through the hoop, or you could toss grenades in, or whatever.

Of course, you could just move the wall a few inches forward or backward so it doesn't intersect with the hoop, and all would be well.

Best story from my game with a wall of force:

The party was joining a resistance movement against a Romanesque empire, and to liberate this one community, they had to destroy a giant dam that diverted a river and fed an aqueduct to the empire. I figured it'd be tough, with lots of fighting to take out the defenders, and then dismantling the dam the hard way. But to my surprise, the party's gnome cleric said, "Okay, I prepare five stone shape spells." This was rather early in 3e, and I didn't know all the spells yet. I was a little surprised.

The party sent warriors to distract the guards while the party wizard and cleric snuck invisibly to the base of the dam and cast stoneshape to create a small hole. The net result was a huge geyser of water spraying out with intense pressure, that would eventually crack the dam and destroy it.

But before they could get off the second spell, the dam's guardian mage teleports in, having scryed their location. The party wizard and the dam mage exchange a few magic missiles and one narrowly avoided lightning bolt, and then the gnome cleric (played by ENWorld's own D12) cast the second stone shape, shaping it so the second geyser of water would strike the mage. The mage gets hurled about twenty feet from the force of the blast, and it takes him long enough to recover that the gnome is able to heal the party wizard, who went down from the lightning bolt. She stabilizes, but doesn't wake up.

Then the dam mage casts a wall of force, sealing the dam wall, the ground, and a nice little hemisphere around the party's wizard and cleric. In an instant, they're flooded in this sphere of force. If not for the fact that the gnome was small enough to wriggle through the tiny hole he'd stoneshaped earlier, get to the surface, and stoneshape a crack between the two holes he'd already created (thus shattering the dam and washing away the enemy mage), they both would've died. Very fun and interesting use of terrain, which I always love.

 

[mikebr99]

<snip>
Then the dam mage casts a wall of force, sealing the dam wall, the ground, and a nice little hemisphere around the party's wizard and cleric. In an instant, they're flooded in this sphere of force. If not for the fact that the gnome was small enough to wriggle through the tiny hole he'd stoneshaped earlier, get to the surface, and stoneshape a crack between the two holes he'd already created (thus shattering the dam and washing away the enemy mage), they both would've died. Very fun and interesting use of terrain, which I always love.

Damn Dam Mages... can't live with them... can't wash them down the river!


Mike

 

[apsuman]

Nah... you can't cast anything targeting something on the opposite side of the wall, because it blocks line of effect. Also, because it is impervious to magic, the area of detect spells should stop at it too.

I really don't see why any of those spells would "go through" the wall, except comprehend languages, which has nothing to do with anyone but yourself. You're the one comprehending.

As for sound going through it, rushlight has a good point about vibrations through the wall... it would be *really* muffled though. I'd say -20 on listen checks, and you'd have to be next to the wall/floor and practically shouting to really have a conversation. Stone doesn't exactly vibrate that much either.

-The Souljourner

Yeah, Comp Languages is a bad example, I was too hasty. Also, I failed to divorce the tight seal discussion from the spell in a "stand alone" environment.

So, if there is a 10 foot wide vertical wall of force in an otherwise open area and caster is on one side and unwilling dupe is on ther other, would a color spray "go around" the wall and effect the guy or not?

If the same wall of force blocked a direct line from the caster's eyes to the target's eyes would charm person fail? What if the wall were such that the eastern most half of each combatant were not covered?

Would detect secret doors allow you to see a secret door on the other side of a wall of force?

Also, since the description says that spells can not pass, would that explain why cloudkill would not get through the wall but air would?

I don't really want answers to these questions, I don't even have a game right now, I only want to point out that intelligent people can have diferences and as long as everyone is on the same page there is no problem.



Personally I would not asphixiate a person trapped in a chamber made airtight by a wall of forcer (or forcecage) simply because it seems to cheap, easy, and overpowering way to use the spell.

 

[d12]

I think a solid seal makes the spell more fun, and it doesn't overpower the spell, so that's better than an uneven fit. But the rules as written seem to imply an uneven fit, even though that seemingly makes it weaker than wall of stone.

Here's an example. Do you remember Star Trek: Generations? Picard is trapped outside that giant wall of force, but he spots an area where a rock over a pit creates a passage that goes under the wall. The wall of force can't go through a rock, so if, say, you had a small metal hoop in the floor, the force would touch walls, ceiling, and most of the floor except for the hoop, which it would go around. People could crawl through the hoop, or you could toss grenades in, or whatever.

Of course, you could just move the wall a few inches forward or backward so it doesn't intersect with the hoop, and all would be well.

Best story from my game with a wall of force:

The party was joining a resistance movement against a Romanesque empire, and to liberate this one community, they had to destroy a giant dam that diverted a river and fed an aqueduct to the empire. I figured it'd be tough, with lots of fighting to take out the defenders, and then dismantling the dam the hard way. But to my surprise, the party's gnome cleric said, "Okay, I prepare five stone shape spells." This was rather early in 3e, and I didn't know all the spells yet. I was a little surprised.

The party sent warriors to distract the guards while the party wizard and cleric snuck invisibly to the base of the dam and cast stoneshape to create a small hole. The net result was a huge geyser of water spraying out with intense pressure, that would eventually crack the dam and destroy it.

But before they could get off the second spell, the dam's guardian mage teleports in, having scryed their location. The party wizard and the dam mage exchange a few magic missiles and one narrowly avoided lightning bolt, and then the gnome cleric (played by ENWorld's own D12) cast the second stone shape, shaping it so the second geyser of water would strike the mage. The mage gets hurled about twenty feet from the force of the blast, and it takes him long enough to recover that the gnome is able to heal the party wizard, who went down from the lightning bolt. She stabilizes, but doesn't wake up.

Then the dam mage casts a wall of force, sealing the dam wall, the ground, and a nice little hemisphere around the party's wizard and cleric. In an instant, they're flooded in this sphere of force. If not for the fact that the gnome was small enough to wriggle through the tiny hole he'd stoneshaped earlier, get to the surface, and stoneshape a crack between the two holes he'd already created (thus shattering the dam and washing away the enemy mage), they both would've died. Very fun and interesting use of terrain, which I always love.

That was a hillarious session! But the ending went like this: the cleric and the unconscious party wizard are sealed up in the wall of force that rapidly fills with water. So, the cleric (who wore only leather armor luckily) grabs the wizard and swims through hole #2 in the dam. But Rangerwickett ruled that the water pressure would spit them back out hole #1 the next round (which was still gushing water.) So, the rest of the party sees the enemy wizard make a little bubble of force and two of their allies are quickly gone. But then next round, they both come popping out of the other hole. My cleric got shot 20 feet, took some damage. Got up and starting slinging spells again. It was all so very humorous.

 

[Sejs]

Then the dam mage casts a wall of force, sealing the dam wall

Well thank god he was able to get there in time. Now the reservoir is safe once more.