D&D 5E War cleric and spiritual weapon vs. gwm

[Warpiglet]

TLDR: great weapon master is under rated for war domain clerics due to its competition for bonus actions and single attacks of clerics. Likewise, It does not pair well with spiritual weapon; but we might not need spiritual weapon as much as we think.
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I am a big fan of battling clerics back to 1e days.

I have been planning a fighting cleric once again.

So much about melee clerics suggests the use of spiritual weapon in lieu of say war cleric extra attack or even use of great weapon master with its bonus attack on a crit or kill.

however, I started looking at the opportunity cost. Clerics have only a handful of 2nd level spells in a day. For the price, I could cast hold person or a number of other good spells.

I am thinking that there is less an issue with bonus actions and gwm/war priest after all.

As a war cleric, you can use war priest. It might be good for a combat or two before depleted. It seems many low and mid level combats are fairly short.

coupled with great weapon master and the war priest’s channel divinity, Spiritual weapon is nice but replaceable in several melees a
I am looking the channel divinity a bit closer. 3 times a short rest by 6th probably translates into 9 uses a day. Than means +10 on perhaps 9 attacks a day.

I would feel very comfortable using -5/+10 on those attacks I think. If a majority of those hit, there is a good amount of damage implied.

of course one or more might drop a creature leading to a bonus attack aside from war priest, at least at low and mid levels.

do I think spiritual weapon is a poor choice? Not at all. It’s nice for clerics. My thesis here is perhaps more about great weapon master and war domain

In most instances I see the opinion that it is poorly spent on a war cleric wanting to do well in melee, and I am starting to disagree.

if we look at resource expenditure and total damage dealt in a day, I can see that leaning more on GWM vs spiritual weapon might save some spells.

again, the war priest gets used up in a day but the channel divinity steps in with a number of strikes a day and many at +10.

if we use an extra hold person or blindness/deafness in place of spiritual weapon in some combats, I think We can be less concerned with the competition for that coveted bonus action.

So in short, I think great weapon master and war priest and channel divinity do well with bonus actions too. And I do not think their competition for the bonus action is overly redundant or crippling and they may be more potent than the typical set up with spiritual weapon

add in greenflame blade or booming blade and would only make gwm more fearsome and likely to kick of a bonus attack after level 5.

 

[jgsugden]

Some back story and then some conversation about bonus actions:

I played a war priest early in 5E. Went from level 1 to 12, then died as part of a TPK.

I was a variant human with GWM, and at first level I was a power house. In meaningful combats I was attacking twice a round (for up to 3 rounds), and often hitting due to advantage from flanking, the bless spell, and was dealing 2d6+13 damage. I had AC 17 soon, and eventually around with AC 19 while using a 2 handed weapon, and then AC 24 when I went to sword and shield.

Over his life, he had a pretty solid pattern of combat performance:

• Aid if we knew combat was coming.
• Spiritual weapon if we were not fighting something really terrifying. If we were, the spiritual weapon was replaced by the domain ability for harder hits.
• Spirit Guardians.
• Bonus action healing spells.

So, from about 7th level on, it would go like this:

Rd 1: Move in and cast Spirit Guardians.
Rd 2: Melee attack, spirit guardians damage, and spiritual weapon.
Rd 3: Melee attack, spirit guardians damage, and either spiritual weapon or healing word/mass healing word/sanctuary.
Sometimes, rather than attack, he'd cast aid to give hps to multiple people that were about to get hit hard (dragon breath, etc...)

I eventually switched to a sword and board style over big weapons when we were going down too fast in combat and I determined that I could avoid a lot more damage by using a magic shield to raise AC and get in more attacks rather than using slots for healing spells. I still busted out the big sword for some combats, but we had an awesome shield and battle axe combo available that gave me nearly the same average damage overall against reasonable ACs.

During this experience, I used spiritual weapon for my bonus the most, but there was a lot of competition for it. Healing word, War Domain ability, Sanctuary, etc... However, Spiritual Weapon remained a key spell for me during the entire time period and I did not feel like it was a misstep.

 

[Zardnaar]

Best war cleric is nature and arcane with the default array.

You key everything off wisdom and use spells like spiritual weapon/guardians.

Arcane cleric picks up shillagh via a feat and combined it with green flame blade.

Vuman can have 20 wisdom by level 8.

GWM looks cute but you still only get 1 attack most if the time.

War cleric with rolled stats is a bit better.

You avoid soaking the -5/+10 part but deal similar damage anyway due to gfb/spiritual weapon and key everything off wisdom.

 

[FrogReaver]

TLDR: great weapon master is under rated for war domain clerics due to its competition for bonus actions and single attacks of clerics. Likewise, It does not pair well with spiritual weapon; but we might not need spiritual weapon as much as we think.
———————————
I am a big fan of battling clerics back to 1e days.

I have been planning a fighting cleric once again.

So much about melee clerics suggests the use of spiritual weapon in lieu of say war cleric extra attack or even use of great weapon master with its bonus attack on a crit or kill.

however, I started looking at the opportunity cost. Clerics have only a handful of 2nd level spells in a day. For the price, I could cast hold person or a number of other good spells.

I am thinking that there is less an issue with bonus actions and gwm/war priest after all.

As a war cleric, you can use war priest. It might be good for a combat or two before depleted. It seems many low and mid level combats are fairly short.

coupled with great weapon master and the war priest’s channel divinity, Spiritual weapon is nice but replaceable in several melees a
I am looking the channel divinity a bit closer. 3 times a short rest by 6th probably translates into 9 uses a day. Than means +10 on perhaps 9 attacks a day.

I would feel very comfortable using -5/+10 on those attacks I think. If a majority of those hit, there is a good amount of damage implied.

of course one or more might drop a creature leading to a bonus attack aside from war priest, at least at low and mid levels.

do I think spiritual weapon is a poor choice? Not at all. It’s nice for clerics. My thesis here is perhaps more about great weapon master and war domain

In most instances I see the opinion that it is poorly spent on a war cleric wanting to do well in melee, and I am starting to disagree.

if we look at resource expenditure and total damage dealt in a day, I can see that leaning more on GWM vs spiritual weapon might save some spells.

again, the war priest gets used up in a day but the channel divinity steps in with a number of strikes a day and many at +10.

if we use an extra hold person or blindness/deafness in place of spiritual weapon in some combats, I think We can be less concerned with the competition for that coveted bonus action.

So in short, I think great weapon master and war priest and channel divinity do well with bonus actions too. And I do not think their competition for the bonus action is overly redundant or crippling and they may be more potent than the typical set up with spiritual weapon

add in greenflame blade or booming blade and would only make gwm more fearsome and likely to kick of a bonus attack after level 5.

You know what else the +10 bonus to attack works great for. A level 2 inflict wounds. 4d10 damage that nearly never misses.

 

[jgsugden]

4d10 is 22 damage average. With GWM, a war cleric can deal 20 damage nearly as reliably - without a spell slot.

GWM decreases in effectiveness when you focus on fewer attacks, but greater damage per attack (as you do with Green Flame Blade, etc...), but for levels 1 through 4, a War Cleric with GWM is one of the most effective melee combatants out there due to those 3 bonus attacks they get to take.

 

[Warpiglet]

I get what you are saying, zardnaar. It is efficient surely.

However, in a few fights a day, I suspect war cleric would pull ahead.

I mapped one out. A level 8 you could have gwm, magic initiate for gfb/bb and 16s in Str, con and wis. Heavy armor of course.

I do like the idea of being able to add magic weapons u might find too.

As stated above, the +10 would be juicy on an inflict wounds too.

But you are not ‘wrong’ by any stretch. The other issue is timing however with Shillelagh.

If you are flat footed when a fight starts, you will not be casting it with spiritual weapon round one. Not a huge deal, bur I am noting it.

Also, if it is a long adventuring day, you only get 2-3 spiritual weapons a day. I like that gwm can moonlight as the buff for a combat a day.

I too like the idea of a bonus attack, at times on a gfb or bb attack. I think the real big difference for me is the spell lists.

I really like arcana and spell breaker in that regard...but for pure smacking potential? I am now moving to the war domain camp.

 

[TwoSix]

It's probably not optimal, but it works fine. Especially at Tier 1, you're going to trigger the cleave BA attack quite a bit averaging 20 dmg a hit. The feat starts to become a drag later in in Tier 2, when you really start to wish you had War Caster instead.

 

[FrogReaver]

4d10 is 22 damage average. With GWM, a war cleric can deal 20 damage nearly as reliably - without a spell slot.

Sure. But 2 counterpoints.
1. There is a higher chance the GWM user uses his channel divinity.
2. There is also the cost of the GWM feat itself. Consider the possibility of taking the healer feat and then using nearly all spell slots on inflict wounds while still functioning as a healer.

GWM decreases in effectiveness when you focus on fewer attacks, but greater damage per attack (as you do with Green Flame Blade, etc...), but for levels 1 through 4, a War Cleric with GWM is one of the most effective melee combatants out there due to those 3 bonus attacks they get to take.

I'm not convinced he does meaningfully more damage than one without the feat.

 

[FrogReaver]

Cumulative Damage of Warcleric using inflict wounds and the bonus action attacks. Assuming 60% chance to hit and no short rests. Looking at level 3.

Round 1: 22
Round 2: 38.6
Round 3: 50.6
Round 4: 62.6
Round 5: 74.6
Round 6: 84.5
Round 7: 94.4
Round 8: 104.3
Round 9: 114.2
Round 10+: +6 per Round.

I'll let someone else do the GWM comparison.

 

[Zardnaar]

I get what you are saying, zardnaar. It is efficient surely.

However, in a few fights a day, I suspect war cleric would pull ahead.

I mapped one out. A level 8 you could have gwm, magic initiate for gfb/bb and 16s in Str, con and wis. Heavy armor of course.

I do like the idea of being able to add magic weapons u might find too.

As stated above, the +10 would be juicy on an inflict wounds too.

But you are not ‘wrong’ by any stretch. The other issue is timing however with Shillelagh.

If you are flat footed when a fight starts, you will not be casting it with spiritual weapon round one. Not a huge deal, bur I am noting it.

Also, if it is a long adventuring day, you only get 2-3 spiritual weapons a day. I like that gwm can moonlight as the buff for a combat a day.

I too like the idea of a bonus attack, at times on a gfb or bb attack. I think the real big difference for me is the spell lists.

I really like arcana and spell breaker in that regard...but for pure smacking potential? I am now moving to the war domain camp.

Few fights the other clerics can nova off with their spelks.

Crunch the extra damage from GWM to the extra damage via gfb or whatever. You also gain a bonus to hit and spell DCs due to higher wisdom.

War clerics win tier 1 if they get to nova. If you're using nova spikes though you're just replacing the bonus attack from GWM with spiritual weapon and you're better at range due to using wisdom.

It's also SAD vs MAD.

Under default array use medium armor, 16 wisdom, 14 dex and con strength can be 10 or 12.

Cleric trap is trying to be a bad fighter. The other clerics have got to option of doing similar damage to gwm build and you're a better primary caster and a lot better at range.

Math changes with decent rolled stats or gauntlets of ogre power.

I've been more impressed with melee nature, death and arcana clerics and divine souls than war clerics.

Light and healing also better IMHO.

Do melee death clerics spamming cantrips count as melee? They wade into combat just using toll the dead, inflict wound, spirtual guardians/weapon. They can smite with inflict wounds.