War Trolls aren't Giants !?!?

Yep,

Course I also think if a DM is confused by rules, he or she might want to reconsider doing the majority of the DM work and instead let another hand that or have an assistant DM do that.
 

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tetsujin28 said:
I dunno, man. We ran into an orc with a few levels of rogue and one of sorcerer, using that 1st level spell (Sniper's Shot) from Complete Adventurer that lets your next ranged attack be a sneak attack. It's a swift action, so there's not even an attack of opportunity for using it. Dang nasty.

So, was it powerful becasue of the socerer level or was it really this one overpowered spell that made the difference?
 

*is betting on the spell himself*

One level of sorcerer does not a powerful creature make.

Course one level of Blessed of Mesos, sorcerer of a different color. ;)
 

Crothian said:
Sure it does. It implies that things that are complicated some DMs don't have the ability to do.

In all fairness, some DMs may simply lack the time to build more complex monsters using templates and class levels. Me, I love to use such things to make each encounter something unique but some weeks I simply don't have the time to do so and I'll recycle old monster stats or pull something straight out of the books. A DM with an even busier schedule than mine would probably just stick to book monsters most of the time out of necessity.

Some DMs might indeed lack the ability to build complex monsters, but to assume that is always the case is rather disingenuous. :\
 

Az,

Agreed but remember though, WotC assumption is based on the idea they are trying to draw in a younger audience. This is because much of the 70s and 80s crowd are now having full time jobs and lives outside of D&D.
 

Nightfall said:
*is betting on the spell himself*

One level of sorcerer does not a powerful creature make.

Course one level of Blessed of Mesos, sorcerer of a different color. ;)

One level of sorcerer on a mountain giant once made for very humourous encounter in a past campaign of mine. His spells were True Strike and Magic Weapon... he magicked up his boulders and then used True Strike to lob them with terrifying accuracy. I used him as a dimwitted extortionist who insisted the party pay him a toll (although he wasn't really solid on the whole concept). His pinpoint accuracy in the quarter-mile boulder chucking department got their attention in a big way though.
 

mearls said:
I think the issue is that class levels don't neatly create a 1:1 CR progression. A frost giant with a level of barbarian gets a lot for that +1 CR. A frost giant with a level of sorcerer? Not so much.

I wouldn't have thought sorcerer levels would count as associated levels for a Frost Giant (heck , I don't count cleric levels as associated levels for giants). They're like some sort of dunce cap for the poor shmuck stuck in the corner casting the couple of levels of spells he's capable of instead of power attacking with his friends.
 

Az,

See though, that's the difference between a 1st level giant with a level in sorcerer and the same level of sorcerer with say a goblin.
 

Nightfall said:
Az,

Agreed but remember though, WotC assumption is based on the idea they are trying to draw in a younger audience. This is because much of the 70s and 80s crowd are now having full time jobs and lives outside of D&D.

True enough, but us old grognards can account for a significant amount of sales (and we're good repeat customers) and we're often willing to pay extra for products that save us time in prepping a game. Hell, even a busy college/university student doesn't always have lots of time to prep games.

WotC needs to draw in younger audiences to perpetuate the hobby and expand their client base. And yes, the high school crowd often has some substantial disposable income (and no financial obligations). All quite true. However, few high school students can match the buying power of a well-employed adult gamer. We may have other priorities and expenses, but in the big picture the price of our gaming habit is petty change compared to stuff like cars and mortgages (or most other hobbies even).

As you say, we do have lives outside D&D, which is exactly why we are willing to pay more for someone to do the prep work for us. Our time is more valuable to us than the price of the extra book or two. Any book that shaves time off my prep work quickly makes it to my "must buy" list. Books that give me lots of options to spend more time playing with during prep time, not so much. I enjoy the latter for the ideas they bring but given a choice between spending the night before gaming typing at my computer or enjoying time with my wife, guess which wins out if I can help it. ;)
 

Az,

This may be so but I think mostly WotC is looking ahead rather than in the present. But that's how most business' operate, not keeping an eye on the current things as much as planning for the future.

Even so you raise excellent points and ones I certainly agree with. But then I'm an old codger too. ;) *well at age 28 going on 29 not THAT old but still!*
 

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