Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[Nightfall]

Well you can post initial findings as you go along. You know not solid data but stuff that people might like to read anyway.

 

[Paradigm]

The crusader is less of a problem because of the random nature of his maneuvers. The lack of control is very limiting. A maneuver that aids in a charge is usually worthless if you don't get it on the first round.

I find this to be almost no limitation at all. One doesn't have to take any charge-related abilities if that ia concern. I find the fact that one can be a damage sponge, and gain a bonus to hit with strikes that heal to be pretty powerful. Extra granted manuever is definately a feat you want to take. Also, you can cycle your manuevers readily to get ones you want.

 

[Nail]

Say...

I'm currently working up a human Warblade thru several levels (3rd, then 9th, then 15th, then 20th) and I'm finding the prerequisites for the manuevers to be a huge challenge. Decisions you make back at 3rd level have large effects on your choices at 15th level. Considering the complexity of the decisions, that seems a Bad Idea(tm) to me.

Comments? Has anyone else had this revelation/problem?

 

[kaomera]

Say...

I'm currently working up a human Warblade thru several levels (3rd, then 9th, then 15th, then 20th) and I'm finding the prerequisites for the manuevers to be a huge challenge. Decisions you make back at 3rd level have large effects on your choices at 15th level. Considering the complexity of the decisions, that seems a Bad Idea(tm) to me.

Comments? Has anyone else had this revelation/problem?

I definitely noticed that. As I had mentioned earlier, I think that a Warblade (or any other Martial Adept class) is much, much harder to build / optimize than a Fighter (or Barbarian, or whatever). I do not think that I would, personally, label that a "Bad Idea(tm)". I'm not sure that's a problem, but then again I'm not sure it's exactly a feature, either. I do believe that it makes some of the comparisons I've seen less valid, as you simply can't just grab whatever maneuvers you want. I also think that assuming that a Warblade will recover their maneuvers every-other round (or even every three or four rounds) is a bit suspect; there are probably situations where it would be advisable, but I think that in most circumstances it's going to be more effective (and more fun, if that matters) to go ahead and fire off your lower-level maneuvers or even unload a full-attack.

One thing this thread has brought up for me is that there are a lot of (IMHO) "little" things that the Warblade gets that I don't think individually make that much of a difference, and I wouldn't even say that combined they overbalanced the class (or would necessarily make the player of a Fighter feel upstaged / overshadowed), but they do have an impact. Maybe that's mostly just psychological, but I don't think the Warblade is going to be rendered useless if you take away a hp per level, or remove some or all of the Weapon Aptitude ability. I'm just naturally wary of "nerf"ing a class, especially in order to avoid overshadowing a different class, it doesn't seem to ever work out positively for me. I'd be much more inclined to give Fighters a bit of a boost (possibly adding a class feature to allow them to apply the Weapon Focus / Specialization line of feats to a group of weapons, similar to the Weapon Group feats from UA).

 

[satori01]

Say...



Comments? Has anyone else had this revelation/problem?

I think it is one of the hidden balancing points. It is hard to try to get all of the best moves from the different disciplines. A Warblade will be able to specialize in 2 types of disciplines top.

Stances counting as maneuvers helps, and the Master of Nine, can help some more. You also can replace Maneuvers known, so theoretically you can replace some old Maneuvers for more powerful ones.

 

[Aaron L]

I think the Warblade is too much after my reading of the Bo9S, comparing it only to the other two classes. Its ability to recover all of its maneuvers with an attack action, compared to the Swordsage having to spend an action to recover just one maneuver, is pretty poorly thought out.

Actually, extremely poorly thought out.

Plus, I really don't see why they should have d12 hit dice. I can't imagine why anyone would want to play a Fighter when Warblade, as is, is available. (speaking strictly from a mechanical perspective) More hit points, more skill points, better skills, almost as many feats, same BAB, AND neat supernatural weapon tricks on top of it? What is the tradeoff? The opportunity cost of having to giving up a full attack to be able to use a special maneuver thats as good as a spell isnt much of a drawback. The Warblade can decide to full attack and do as much damage as the Fighter OR use his special attack that summons fire and blows up the bad guys. The Fighter doesnt get the choice. When one class can do everything another class can do, and just as well, PLUS a whole bunch of other things, I call it problems.

I think whoever wrote up that class was drinking a little too much that day. I think the current idea in class design is that versatility isn't that much of an advantage; that the ability to do several things equally as well as another class doesnt give it an advantage over the other class. Thats the only excuse I can think of for the Warblade. I'm guessing they thought that if it can only do as much at one time as a Fighter than it doesnt matter how many other things it can do as well, because it can still only do one thing at a time. And I don't really think thats a very good way to balance classes. The Fighter is getting left in the cold, because it's gonna be way more fun with this class that can fight just as well, but he can also decide to go all Crouching Tiger when he gets bored with just full attacking all the time.

It's a matter of fun. The Warblade is a FUNNER class. It has more bells and whistles.

Plus, giving it the accesibility to Fighter only feats is really just adding insult to injury. I could see maybe adding more feats like Weapon Supremacy could make the Fighter shine a little brighter, but then they give the Warblade acces to them too, PLUS he can swap out the weapons he wants to specialize in whenever he wants!


Damn, the more I talk about it the more baffled I get. Who approved this class?


I love the Bo9S. I just think the Warblade is way over the top.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

In at least 2 years of 7-9 player games, no one in my games has ever played a fighter, or rather, played more than 4 levels of fighter.
Saying that no one would play a fighter when the warblade is available means nothing, because no one wanted to play a fighter before the warblade was available.

 

[BASHMAN]

"waaaah. Fighters are not as fun as warblades!"

So don't play a fighter! Play a warblade!

 

[Felon]

When one class can do everything another class can do, and just as well, PLUS a whole bunch of other things, I call it problems.

That's really my issue with the warblade. It's not even that it's overpowered so much as overfeatured. It's just too damn much stuff rolled into one class. It's like some weird barbarian/fighter/rogue/swashbuckler amalgam.

Damn, the more I talk about it the more baffled I get. Who approved this class?

I really wish it were possible to nail down the author(s) of individual classes, feats, and other content.

Btw, sorry about Woofers. Lost me a cat earlier this year. Sucks.

 

[glass]

What ability works for the barbarian, but doesn't work for the WB? You're setting up lots of strawmen, methinks.

Was it really necessary to edit a wholey inaccurate accusation into your post?

So, a Bbn can tumble in medium armor, but a WB can't?

No, a barbarian can use fast movement in medium armour, but a warblade can't tumble in medium armour. Obviously.


glass.