Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[DarkJester]

You are ducking my qyestion.

I tihnk Nail agrees with my statement:

I'm not sure really. We havn't seen one in play yet. I don't think this ability in and of itself is enough to break or not break the class. My combats don't seem like they would last long enough for a warblade to be recharging his manuevers very often in combat.

(See post 196)

 

[Nail]

How do you think the actual manuever selection plays into the comparison of warblade and fighter? Nail, you mentioned some manuevers being like stronger feats, that's kind of where I'm going with this.

It's complicated...which is one reason I'm sitting on the fence of this issue.

Manuever selction depends *alot* on when you get the new maneuver slot and what maneuvers you already have. Decisions you make (as a WB) very early on significantly restrict what maneuvers are available to you in the higher levels.

Tell you what: When I get home, I'll post a 15th level Warblade I worked up from level 1. Fair warning: I have yet to see a WB *in play*. That's significant.

 

[Nail]

You are ducking my qyestion.

I am?
Since I don't feel the "wording is ambiguous", I don't feel the RAW supports another interpretation. A WB may recharge while full-attacking.

Do the people arguing that the Warblade is overpowered believe it would not be so without this ability?

The WB is not overpowered dependent on the state of it's recharge ability. It's overpowered because it has:

• Higher HD
• More Skill points
• Better skill list
• Maneuvers that are often better than feats, and certainly more adaptable than feats.
• ...and a list of other class abilities to boot (adaptive style, Battle Clarity, etc)

But: I'd like to see it in play (or hear about it in play a lot more) before I know. After having written up several level comparisons between a Ftr and a WB (3rd, 9th, 15th, 20th), it looks like the WB is "too good"....and yet, I could be wrong.

NilesB, what's been your experience with a WB? Ever had a comparison with a Ftr?

 

[Nail]

3rd level Warblade

Warning! There are House Rules about equipment in play here. Since I was doing this to compare a Ftr and a WB, the different equipment rules are irrelevant.

************************************
Test Warblade
Male Human WB 3
Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6 (+2 Dex +4 feat); Senses Listen +4, Spot +4
Languages Common_______________________________
AC 16, touch 12, ff 14 Uncanny Dodge
(Chainshirt +4, Dex +2)
hp 31 (3 HD)
Fort +5 Ref +3 (+5 Battle Clarity) Will +3_________
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Melee Greataxe +9 (1d12+6/x3)
Battle Ardor: +2 to confirm crits
Ranged Throwing Axe +6 (1d6+4/x2, R 10ft)
Base Atk +3; Grp +7
Maneuvers Known Stone Bones (Stone 1, strike, DR 5/adamantine), Leading the Attack (White 1, strike, allies +4 atk), Moment of Perfect Mind (Diam 1, counter, Conc. Skill for Will save), Steel Wind (Iron 1, strike, Atk 2 foes), Mountain Hammer (Stone 2, strike, +2d6 dam & no DR)
Stances Known (1) Punishing Stance (Iron 1, +1d6 dam, -2 AC)
Maneuvers Readied (3)
Moment of Perfect Mind, Leading the Attack, Stone Bones___________________
Abilities Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 6
Feats Weapon FocusB, Impr. Init., Adaptive Style
Skills (7x6r): Balance +9 (6 ranks +2 Dex -1 armor +2 Tumble), Climb +9 (6 ranks +4 Str -1 armor), Concentration +8 (6 ranks +2 Con), Jump +9 (6 ranks +4 Str -1 armor), Listen +4 (cc 3 ranks +1 Wis), Spot +4 (cc 3 ranks +1 Wis), Tumble +9 (6 ranks +2 Dex -1 armor +2 Jump)
Possessions Adventuring gear, MW Chainshirt, MW Greataxe, MW Throwing Axe, 1 Cure LW Infusion
*********************************

 

[Nail]

9th Level Warblade

Again: There are House Rules here (about magical equipment and such). These are easy to ignore for our pupose here.

************************************************
Test Warblade
Male Human WB 9
Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6 (+2 Dex +4 feat); Senses Listen +7, Spot +7
Languages Common________________________________
AC 20, touch 12, ff 18
(Chainshirt +4, Dex +2, Nat Armor +4)
hp 82 (9 HD)
Fort +11 Ref +8 (+10 Battle Clarity) Will +8________
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Melee Greataxe +19/+14 (1d12+14/x3)
Battle Ardor: +2 to confirm crits
Ranged Throwing Axe +11 (1d6+6/x2, R 10ft)
Base Atk +9; Grp +15
Maneuvers Known (8) Moment of Perfect Mind (Diam 1, counter, Conc. for Will save), Emerald Razor (Diam 2, 1D, strike, touch atk), Disarming Strike (Iron 2, strike, Atk + Disarm), Battle Leader’s Charge (White 2, 1W, strike, charge no AoO, +10 dam), Mountain Hammer (Stone 2, strike, +2d6 dam & no DR), White Raven Tactics (White 3, 1W, boost, change ally init), Lightning Recovery (Iron 4, 2I, counter, re-roll Atk +2), Iron Heart Focus (Iron 5, 2I counter, re-roll save)
Stances Known (2) Punishing Stance (Iron 1, +1d6 dam, -2 AC), Tactics of the Wolf (White 3, 1W, all flanking +1/2 lvl dam)
Maneuvers Readied (4)
_______Battle Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, Emerald Razor, Iron Heart Focus__
Abilities Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 6
Feats Weapon Focus(greataxe)B, Impr. Init., Adaptive Style, Combat ReflexesWB5, Weapon Specialization(greataxe), Power Attack, Unnerving CalmWB9,
Skills (7x12r): Balance +15 (12 ranks +2 Dex -1 armor +2 Tumble), Climb +17 (12 ranks +6 Str -1 armor), Concentration +14 (12 ranks +2 Con), Jump +19 (12 ranks +6 Str -1 armor +2 tumble), Listen +7 (cc 6 ranks +1 Wis), Spot +7 (cc 6 ranks +1 Wis), Tumble +15 (12 ranks +2 Dex -1 armor +2 Jump)
Possessions Adventuring gear, MW Scalemail, MW Greataxe, MW Throwing Axe, 1 Cure LW Infusion
Instilled Magic +2 Str (6000XP), +4 Nat Armor (15,000XP), +3 Greataxe (9000XP), +3 Saves (9000XP)
************************************************

 

[Nail]

15th level Warblade

At the risk of killing this thread, here's the last Warblade I'll post:

***********************************************
Test Warblade
Male Human WB 15
Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Listen +10, Spot +10
Languages Common______________________________
AC 29, touch 13, ff 26
(+5 Chainshirt +4, Dex +3, Nat Armor +7)
hp 163 (15 HD)
Fort +20 Ref +15 (+17 w/Battle Clarity) Will +13_______________
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Melee Greataxe +22/+14/+8 (1d12+21/x3)
Battle Ardor: +2 to confirm crits
Ranged Throwing Axe +18 (1d6+9/x2, R 10ft)
Base Atk +15; Grp +22
Atk Options
Blind-fighting
Battle Cunning: +2 dam vs. flanked or ff
Battle Skill: +2 oppose bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip
Battle Mastery: +2 Atk & Dam on AoOs
Maneuvers Known (11)
Moment of Perfect Mind (Diam 1, counter, Conc. for Will save), Emerald Razor (Diam 2, 1D, strike, touch atk), Disrupting Blow (Diam 5, 2D, strike, Will DC 22 or no actions for 1 rd), Quicksilver Motion (Diam 7, 3D, boost, free move action), Disarming Strike (Iron 2, strike, Atk + Disarm), Lightning Recovery (Iron 4, 2I, counter, re-roll Atk +2), Iron Heart Focus (Iron 5, 2I, counter, re-roll save), Iron Heart Endurance (Iron 6, 2I, boost,if 1/2hp then heal lvlx2), White Raven Tactics (White 3, 1W, boost, change ally init), War Leader’s Charge (White 6, 2W, strike, charge no AoO, +35 dam), White Raven Hammer (White 8, 3W, strike, +6d6 dam & stun 1 rd)
Stances Known (3) Punishing Stance (Iron 1, +1d6 dam, -2 AC), Tactics of the Wolf (White 3, 1W, all flanking +1/2 lvl dam), Hearing the Air (Diam 5, 2D, Blindsense 30ft, +5 Listen)
Maneuvers Readied (6)
Quicksilver Motion, Iron Heart Focus, Lightning Recovery,
War Leader’s Charge, White Raven Tactics, White Raven Hammer__________
Abilities Str 24, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 6
Feats Weapon Focus(greataxe)B, Impr. Init., Adaptive Style, Combat ReflexesWB5, Weapon Specialization(greataxe), Power Attack, Unnerving CalmWB9, Greater Weapon Focus(greataxe), Blind FightWB13, Melee Weapon Mastery(slashing)
Skills (7x18r): Balance +22 (18 ranks +3 Dex -1 armor +2 Tumble), Climb +24 (18 ranks +7 Str -1 armor), Concentration +22 (18 ranks +4 Con), Jump +26 (18 ranks +7 Str -1 armor +2 tumble), Listen +10 (cc 9 ranks +1 Wis), Spot +10 (cc 9 ranks +1 Wis), Tumble +22 (18 ranks +3 Dex -1 armor +2 Jump)
Possessions Adventuring gear, MW Scalemail, MW Greataxe, MW Throwing Axe, 2 Cure LW Infusions
Instilled Magic +3 Str (9000XP), +2 Dex (6000XP), +4 Con (12,000XP), +5 Armor (15,000XP), +7 Nat Armor (21,000XP), +7 Greataxe (9000XP), +7 Saves (21,000XP
***********************************************

 

[KuKu]

Abilities Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 6

A modified point buy with a value of 36? Higher point buys tend to favour characters who need more attributes and this is a very high point buy.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I think the full-attack-while-recharging is sort of a drop in the bucket at this point.

When we line up the Warblade vs. the Fighter, this is where I think the Warblade creates problems:

* Higher HD
* More Skill Points
* Better Skill Selection
* Access to "Fighter-Only" Feats
* Improvements to "Fighter-Only" Feats that the Fighter doesn't get
* Additional Class abilities, some worth feats in-and-of-themselves
* Nearly half the number of Bonus Feats of the Fighter
* Stances worth a feat apiece, possibly more in some cases.
* Maneuvers worth a feat apiece, possibly more in some cases.
* Counters and Boosts, which are aren't something the Fighter really has access to.

"Mang, them full attacks be the bomb-diggity." is sort of irrelevant ... in fact, I think saying: "But many maneuvers don't allow for a Full Attack." is also largely irrelevant. I've played a melee combatant from 3rd-15th level at this point, and I RARELY find myself in the position to perform a full attack. I can buff and bash a full attack with the best of them, but here are the issues:

* On even a slightly dynamic battlefield, people are rarely within a 5' step of your beatstick.
* If the badguy has placed himself into a position where he will be Full Attacked, it often means he's ready to suck up that full attack and dish out his own.
* If you have placed yourself into a position to Full Attack, you're in a position to suck up a Full Attack from the guy you want to wail on.
* At levels where "The Full Attack Action" begin to show up, even for full BAB characters, you're fighting creatures who are specifically designed A) To survive one or more full attacks from multiple characters and B) Have the Strength and HD to make their own Full Attack as nasty or MORE nasty than your Fighter-type.

The Full Attack is not a magic cure-all where monsters explode because "The Fighter" has assaulted them with his "Feats". What "Feats" are these that cause all of the monsters to drop over dead with a Full Attack? Power Attack? PA ups your damage at the expense of your attack bonus, and your Full Attack is at progressively lower attack bonuses ... meaning when you Power Attack you're trading more damage for fewer hits. I can't recall too many feats that are useful for Full Attacks that aren't stand-alone or very short chains, so I don't see where "Feats" make "Full Attacks" the ultimate weapon in the Fighter arsenal any more than the full attack and a few good feats can be strapped onto a Warblade or a Swordsage or a Monk.

Now, if the D&D Podcast folks are saying that these classes are overpowered, and they are. "Don't measure them against the melee classes, measure them against the spellcasting classes." That's saying: "Yea, it's a power creep, but look ... SHINY NEW CLASSES!"

I'd have rather seen Tome of Battle introduce this stuff with feats for Fighters, alternate class ability progressions for Monks, Feats for Monks that allow them to trade our class abilities for new ToB stuff, things that allow the Barbarian and the Paladin to access ToB maneuvers, etc ...

THAT would have been good design. Granting that spellcasters have become more powerful than the melee classes in the game, "fixing" that isn't unofficially scrapping the melee classes and building suped-up new classes to replace them. FIXING the issue is offering some more stuff for the existing melee classes.

It's paramount to saying: "Polymorph is broken, so we're going to introduce a whole new system of magic based around Polymorph so that all spellcasting is equal in level to Polymorph and just as difficult to adjudicate ... and we'll add in some brand new classes that are more powerful than the Wizard and Sorcerer that do everything the sorcerer and wizard do, but better and with more skills."

--fje

 

[dvvega]

Just a mention on the whole Warblade recovery thing. I decided to contact WOTC customer service and they have confirmed that the melee attack is intended to be a Standard Action.

It is retrievable with an attack action (which is a standard action). You can indeed take a 5-ft step as well.

 

[charlesatan]

Here's the other response I got from CustServ:

"The rules only mention an attack action, which would normally be a standard action! Now if the DM wanted to allow the recovery after a full attack action, that would seem reasonable as well, but the Dungeon Master would have to let everybody know that this was a specific ruling for his/her own game. Have fun and good gaming!"