Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[DarkJester]

So am I! It's just the Warblade is SO cool it makes the Fighter look like the guy who took his aunt to the prom in comparison.

What I'm really trying to say is: I want BOTH classes to be cool. But overshadowing the coolness and fun of the Fighter is bad. When one class completely overshadows another in it's supposed area of expertise it's bad for the game. All the classes are supposed to be equally fun. No one should have to "take a hit" for the sake of wanting to roleplay a plain Fighter, the plain Fighter should be just as cool and exciting as every other option.

I still find it really weird that I'm on the side of a discussion actually opposing a cool new class. To be bad enough to make me take a stand against it it has to be really onerous.

I think cool is pretty subjective. To me, a fighter will never be as cool as, say, even a barbarian. The same goes for equally fun. Fun depends on the player. I have more fun playing spellcasters that melee combatants as I have more options in combat. I have no interest playing a fighter, and never have. Feats are something everyone gets, getting more feats doesn't appeal to me as the concept behind my character's strength. The warblade on the other hand offers a variety of abilities that really spice up combat. I'd play a warblade. I don't think being a plain fighter is taking a hit, though I do think it would be less fun to play. And as such, In my games I recomend that players look at the warblade if they are thinking of making a fighter, although I don't force it. I think the warblade is everything the fighter should have been.


EDIT:
As far as making the fighter cool, I'm not sure how to accomplish that. The fighters main ability is the plethora of feats it recieves. The problem with that is, if the feats are on a small feat chain (so that lower level fighters can recieve them), then anyone can get them, and if the feats are on a big feat chain then they won't come into play until late anyhow. The warblade looks like it would be fun all the way through. I do think the warblade having acsess to fighter only feats is stepping on the fighter's toes a bit now that I think about it.

 

[Nail]

As far as making the fighter cool, I'm not sure how to accomplish that. The fighters main ability is the plethora of feats it recieves. The problem with that is, if the feats are on a small feat chain (so that lower level fighters can recieve them), then anyone can get them, and if the feats are on a big feat chain then they won't come into play until late anyhow.

I disagree. Many people may have access to many of the Ftr feats, but NO ONE can take as many of them as the Ftr, and thus NO ONE can build them into the cool combos the Ftr can. Some of these combos are available to the Ftr right from Level 1, unlike the other classes.

For example: Making a great Trip Monkey requires lots of feats (Exotic Weapon, Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Impr. Trip, Weapon Focus, etc......including all of those cool PH II feats...) and no one has the feats to do that except the Ftr. Meanwhile the Ftr can do that, plus do other things well.

<PIMP>And if you still think the Ftr is too weak, give 'em more bonus feats like I do.....</PIMP>

All of that said: The Warblade appears to *still* step on the Ftr's schtick. Those cool maneuvers look an awful lot like "suped-up feats"...and the Warblade (et al.) gets even more of them!

 

[Nail]

It's just the Warblade is SO cool it makes the Fighter look like the guy who took his aunt to the prom in comparison.

 

[NilesB]

The availabilityof full attacks on the round a Warblade recharges his maneuvers is ambigious.
I feel the Warblade is balanced disallowing this ability, but probably overpowered allowing it.
Do the people arguing that the Warblade is overpowered believe it would not be so without this ability?

 

[DarkJester]

I disagree. Many people may have access to many of the Ftr feats, but NO ONE can take as many of them as the Ftr, and thus NO ONE can build them into the cool combos the Ftr can. Some of these combos are available to the Ftr right from Level 1, unlike the other classes.

For example: Making a great Trip Monkey requires lots of feats (Exotic Weapon, Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Impr. Trip, Weapon Focus, etc......including all of those cool PH II feats...) and no one has the feats to do that except the Ftr. Meanwhile the Ftr can do that, plus do other things well.

I'm with you somewhat here. I think that one of the main problems is the lack of synergy between a lot of the feats, though I don't think this would be an issue unless core only or very high level.

At 10th level a fighter really doesn't look half bad on second look.

10th Level Fighter could have the following:
Weapon Focus
Power Attack
Cleave
Expertise
Improved Trip
Weapon Specialization
Improved Critical
Knock Down
Close Quarters Fighting
Improved Buckler Defense (Or Sheild Specialization)

Pros: More Feats, Heavy Armor + Buckler or Shield for decent defense, power attack, knock down, and improved trip for some good offense. C.Q.F to resist those nasty grapples (though situational, a lifesaver). WF, WS, and Imp. Critical for more fun.

When I get home I'll throw some generic warblade stuff and see what he's got to compare to the Fighter at this point. Or someone else can humor me till I get back to my books.

The availabilityof full attacks on the round a Warblade recharges his maneuvers is ambigious.
I feel the Warblade is balanced disallowing this ability, but probably overpowered allowing it.
Do the people arguing that the Warblade is overpowered believe it would not be so without this ability?

I'm not sure really. We havn't seen one in play yet. I don't think this ability in and of itself is enough to break or not break the class. My combats don't seem like they would last long enough for a warblade to be recharging his manuevers very often in combat.

 

[Nail]

I'm not sure really. We havn't seen one in play yet. I don't think this ability in and of itself is enough to break or not break the class. My combats don't seem like they would last long enough for a warblade to be recharging his manuevers very often in combat.

That's where I'm sitting too.

My combats last about 5 rounds, give or take. Here's how I predict a combat with a WB to go (FWIW):
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Round 1: Use a "charging" maneuver.

Round 2: Use some sort of attack maneuver, perhaps combined with either a Boost or a Counter (both are Swift Actions).

Round 3: Battlefield changes so that the melee-types have to move. The WB moves, then uses a Standard Action Maneuver.

Round 4: Full Attack plus recharge.

Round 5: Use some sort of attack maneuver, perhaps combined with either a Boost or a Counter (both are Swift Actions). The battle is practically finished at this point.
************************

Which means 1 recharge....that is combined with a full attack. The WB uses pretty much all of his readied maneuvers before recharging.

 

[Nail]

The availabilityof full attacks on the round a Warblade recharges his maneuvers is ambigious.

I disagree.

 

[DarkJester]

Thinking of manuevers, I seem to remember the warblade having some pretty powerful stuff, such as full attack at the end of a charge, rerolling attacks, Or being able to void some heavy hits. How do you think the actual manuever selection plays into the comparison of warblade and fighter? Nail, you mentioned some manuevers being like stronger feats, that's kind of where I'm going with this.

 

[DarkJester]

Also Nail, adressing your original point. I don't get to play much, but the next time I do I'm going to do everything short of gift wrapping my left hand and giving it to the DM to be able to play a Warblade or Sword Sage. Not because I seek to dominate in combat, but, as had been said many times in the thread, because they are so dang cool. They've got Style.

 

[NilesB]

I disagree.

You are ducking my question.