Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[Nail]

The skills however I will simply call a step in the correct direction.

Just so we're clear: I get that. NSI => No Sarcasm Intended. There's been more than one occasion in which my gaming friends and I say, "Wouldn't it be better if everyone had more skill points?"

But I'd rather that sort of decision be made indepentent of a new class introduction. ..Sorta a "rising tide lifts all boats" philosophy. Giving a new class extra skill points because "everyone should have more skill points" completely misses the point, IMO.

Or giving a new "Warrior Class" d12 HD because "all warriors types should have higher HD" is not constructive. Etc.

The maneuver mechanic is interesting, and a breath of fresh air with respect to melee combat. I like it. ...I would have liked it even more if they had presented it with new classes that were balanced with the core classes. Surely that's a reasonable request, is it not?

 

[Slaved]

Just so we're clear: I get that.

And I get that you feel that the warblade gets too much.

Unfortunately WOTC has decided to not errata some skills into the fighter. Who knows why. But that does not mean that everyone else should suffer for it. I want them to give th fighter some skills!! Please!!! I am not going to take skills away from other characters to make the fighter feel better though.

Maybe introducing more skills to new classes is the first step in fixing the fighter. It could be a multi edition fix, and the fix has to start somewhere.

I notice that you did not comment on my reasoning behind the d12 hd though so I will try another route. Why does the barbarian have the d12 hd in your opinion? The barbarian also has 4 skill points and a better skill list than the fighter.

I would have liked it even more if they had presented it with new classes that were balanced with the core classes.

I think that by ""core classes"" you actually mean ""fighter"". I also think that you further mean ""certain types of melee fighters"". That looks to be a long way away from the words you actually used though.

 

[FireLance]

A fighter with 16 (or 18) str fighting two handed can do decent damage but it doesn't compare to the 1d20+22 damage. Also you keep forgetting that the round when he's recharging he can do the same thing as the fighter. He can attack two handed with slightly less damage due to his lower str. AND/OR he could also add +2d6 from another strike, or get to attack two creatures at once with a strike, etc. So even if some other character can come close to averaging the damage look at what he is lacking in other areas? The fighter has a will save of 2 or so? Maybe 3-4 depending on stats and a resistance item? Compare that to +22. Same thing for reflex or fortitude saves. And the fighter's not getting any other benefits in other areas out of combat to make up for it. In fact, the warblade has diplomacy which a fighter doesn't so he can also has added role playing benefits.

As mentioned, a warblade can potentially do many things, but not all at the same time. A 5th-level warblade (for the sake of argument) has six maneuvers known and four maneuvers readied. If he wants to take Insightful Strike and the three saving throw counters, that's all the maneuvers he can ready, and he can know at most two other maneuvers.

As for role-playing benefits, don't forget that the fighter gets Diplomacy as a class skill if he takes a White Raven maneuver with Martial Study

 

[sithramir]

Sample Warblade

Warblade Warblader
Male dwarf warblade 5
CN Medium Humanoid
Init +1; Senses Listen +, Spot +; darkvision 60 ft.
Languages Common, Dwarven
AC 17(20), touch 11, flat-footed 17, +4 AC against giants, uncanny dodge (Dex +1, +1 chain shirt armor +5, +1 Deflection)
Hp 58 (5 HD)
Resist stability
Saves Fort +8(+10 against poison), Ref +3, Will +1; +2 on saves against spells and spell-like effects
Speed 20 (30) ft.
Melee +1 dwarven waraxe +10 (1d10+5/x3)
Atk Options +1 on attacks against orcs and goblinoids, battle ardor
Base Atk +5, Grp +8
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds
Maneuvers and Stances Known
Stances: Punishing Stance, Stance of Clarity*
Maneuvers: Mountain Hammer*, Insightful Strike*, Steel Wind, Saphire Nightmare Blade
Boosts: Moment of Perfect Mind*, Action Before Thought*
*Readied stance or maneuver
Abilities Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6
SQ stonecutting, weapon aptitude
Feats Weapon Focus (dwarven waraxe), Blade Meditation, Skill Focus (Concentration)
Skills Concentration +22, Tumble +9, etc,.
Possesions Combat gear + Tunic of Steady Spellcasting, Ring of Protection +1

Please note I wrote this up quickly but it's a good comparison for the point buy specified which is not what my group uses. If I was a human I'd probably have improved initiative or unnerving calm. Sixth level i'd be torn between one of those and weapon specialization.

I could have given him less strength and had a 19 con to work towards level 8 but decided to put the point in str. If I took weapon spec at 6th level and got a +2 str boosting item the damage would go up by 4 on a normal attack which is pretty nice. Course his 1d20 +22 ain't too shabby. I didn' t gold because it may be a little over 9000 but you get the idea.

 

[Slaved]

Thank you sithramir, I'll look it over in a little while, a little busy right now. Maybe someone else will have another character to compare with before I get back

Edited..
I just noticed you made a dwarf, that will make the comparison a little tougher. I had thought it was going to be humans. I'll have to think about it more than I thought I would.

 

[FireLance]

sithramir, minor nitpick: How did you get Absolute Steel Stance? The warblade gets his second stance at 4th level, and since there are no 2nd level stances, that means he has to pick another 1st-level stance. Did you mean Punishing Stance (-2 AC, +1d6 damage)?

 

[Slaved]

Ok, things I noticed.

Over on money, but you caught that. Still, it would be nice to keep to the 9k limit.

You cannot yet have absolute steel dance, firelance already caught this.

You are allowed 1 3rd level maneuver and you have two. At least one of them must go.

 

[sithramir]

Ok I edited the character above to fix things.

Added Saphire Nightmare Blade

Removed Mind over Body, and the stance and replaced it with Punishing Stance.

Also removed Amulet of Nat Amor +1 so now he has some spare cash since I didn't feel like adding it all together.

I swear that I could switch an old stance for a new one but maybe I can't do that yet. That's why he had the different stance but i'll reread. Changes should make him "correct" for now.

 

[Slaved]

At 4th, and every 4th level thereafter I believe, you can change a stance. But at 4th you still cannot choose 5th level stances so the only option is changing a 1st for a different 1st I believe, assuming that there are no 2nd level stances available.

 

[FireLance]

At 4th, and every 4th level thereafter I believe, you can change a stance. But at 4th you still cannot choose 5th level stances so the only option is changing a 1st for a different 1st I believe, assuming that there are no 2nd level stances available.

I don't think you can change stances, just maneuvers at every even level starting from 4th.