Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[FireLance]

You're right. He had to take those feats and nothing else. Though he was human and had another. Without it he still does 1d20 +17 assuming he has his new Tunic of Steady Spellcasting. The reason he takes those is why not? How else do you get two feats to give +5 damage. His options are the same as a fighter with added benefits.

Just try DM'ing someone with a warblade who does 1d20 + 22 in their first round attack. How many characters does the group fight that has enough hps to survive that?

A Medium-sized 5th-level fighter with 18 Strength and Powerful Charge (Eberron Campaign Setting), Greater Powerful Charge (Eberron Campaign Setting), Rapid Assault (Book of Nine Swords), Power Attack, Weapon Focus and a +1 greatsword can charge and deal 5d6+17 (avg 34.5) points of damage in the first round of combat with a +8 attack bonus. With a bit of magic help in the form of an enlarge person from a spellcaster or a 50 gp potion, this goes up to 7d6+18 (avg 42.5) points of damage.

I must admit that the warblade can probably deal higher damage more consistently, though.

 

[chaotix42]

Insightful Strike damage does multiply. In the ToB it states that extra damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit. Insightful strike is not extra damage at all, merely different damage.

I had a PC use an Insightful Strike with a heavy pick and roll a natural 20. Hello 120-ish points of damage, goodbye poor lizardfolk.

 

[NilesB]

Insightful strike does not benefit from anything that increases normal damage.

Critical hits clearly qualify here.

 

[glass]

The rule of thumb is that extra damage doesn't multiply. This replaces normal damage. I'd call it good.

Extra damage dice don't multiply on a critical.

And I wouldn't call it a rule of thumb. It's just a rule; the rule.


glass.

 

[glass]

Insightful strike does not benefit from anything that increases normal damage. Critical hits clearly qualify here.

I'm not sure they do. Critical hits don't increase normal damage, they just apply it more than once.


glass.

 

[Fedifensor]

Extra damage dice don't multiply on a critical.

For clarity, here is the quote from the book (page 43):

"You can make a critical hit with a strike, and in a few cases, a critical hit grants you additional benefits. You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from an ability, such as sneak attack."

So, the +100 damage strike doesn't become +400 if you get a critical hit with a scythe. However, since Insightful Strike isn't extra damage, but the base damage of the strike, I'd say that will multiply. Otherwise, they would have said that you can't get a critical with Insightful Strike.

 

[NilesB]

I'm not sure they do. Critical hits don't increase normal damage, they just apply it more than once.

So with a critical hit on insightful strike you get to not apply normal damage twice.

 

[sithramir]

For clarity, here is the quote from the book (page 43):

"You can make a critical hit with a strike, and in a few cases, a critical hit grants you additional benefits. You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from an ability, such as sneak attack."

So, the +100 damage strike doesn't become +400 if you get a critical hit with a scythe. However, since Insightful Strike isn't extra damage, but the base damage of the strike, I'd say that will multiply. Otherwise, they would have said that you can't get a critical with Insightful Strike.

You don't care about what the sage says but the above logic is sound. You make a concentration check in lieu of normal damage. You're not doing any extra damage. The critical hit would multiply the normal damage. Mountain hammer gives +2d6 damage which WOULDN"T be multipled on a critical hit.

Also whoever stated that it was a 16 con with a 28 point buy. It was an 18 con for the specific case I mentioned in our game where we have a different point buy system. If you were doing a normal 28 point buy it would most likely by only a 16 to make other stats realistic.

A fighter with 16 (or 18) str fighting two handed can do decent damage but it doesn't compare to the 1d20+22 damage. Also you keep forgetting that the round when he's recharging he can do the same thing as the fighter. He can attack two handed with slightly less damage due to his lower str. AND/OR he could also add +2d6 from another strike, or get to attack two creatures at once with a strike, etc. So even if some other character can come close to averaging the damage look at what he is lacking in other areas? The fighter has a will save of 2 or so? Maybe 3-4 depending on stats and a resistance item? Compare that to +22. Same thing for reflex or fortitude saves. And the fighter's not getting any other benefits in other areas out of combat to make up for it. In fact, the warblade has diplomacy which a fighter doesn't so he can also has added role playing benefits.

You guys can debate that it's not overpowered or not but it's the sum of things that gets me. The fact that he owns combat AND get's better skill points is what bums me out. I could say (fine my fighter isn't as powerful but i'll role play him more) but the warblade's added skills helps him to be a better role player (in statistic terms). He could put one of his 3 + int + human skill points into role playing skills the same as a fighter. In the end it's about fun and I don't need to have the most powerful character to do that but it sucks that I have to ignore a few other classes because a similar build with some warblade levels can outclass it.

 

[Nail]

You guys can debate that it's not overpowered or not but it's the sum of things that gets me.

It's the "sum of things" that gets me too.

What first "got my dander up" was the d12 HD. There's just no good reason for that. The next was looking over the class skills, and seeing a better class list and more skill points. (You don't need 2 extra skill points per level just to take Concentration, and Concentration is not a skill used for most maneuvers.) Then there are the class abilities (apart from the maneuvers).....

The maneuvers may be the equivalent of the Ftr bonus feats (that's highly debatable, but it's at least possible). ...But all the rest???

 

[Slaved]

Couldn't the extra average hit point be to make up for the classes extra MAD plus the lighter armor choices?

The skills however I will simply call a step in the correct direction.

sithramir, please stat out this build that you are talking about. 28 point buy, 5th level, warblade. Otherwise we are comparing phantoms to phantoms.