Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

epochrpg said:
Part of the problem with how people are viewing warblade is that they are forgetting 1 major thing:

You can ONLY TAKE 1 SWIFT OR IMMEDIATE ACTION per round! It explicitly states that in TOB. This means that if you use an immediate action to make a will save, you cannot make a manuver that round.

Erb?

I can take a swift or immediate action AND perform a maneuver that uses a standard, move, or full action. Or at least I think I can. If not, that _would_ make a significant difference. Heck, as far as I know you can perform a swift, move, and standard maneuver all in one turn...
 

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brehobit: What I think (or rather: "hope") epochrpg is saying is that you can't use two "swift action" maneuvers per round. I'm not sure anyone has said they could, but epochrpg seems to think the point has been over-looked.

You can certainly use a maneuver that takes a swift action and then a maneuver that takes a standard action (or full-round action) in the same round. There are no new rules forbidding that.
 

Brehobbit: Yes, it's more of I can't use two counters in the same round (unless you have that 8th-level stance that allows you to do so). So you can use the Concentration --> Ref save or Concentration --> Will save, just not both in the same round, or even the same one consecutively. It also means that if you do use those counters, you can't refresh your WB maneuvers the next round (since it requires a swift action). (Or at the very least, that's one boost you can't use the next round.)

Nail: It was probably Plane Sailing's complaint (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3191117&postcount=293), due to my post (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3191023&postcount=289), to which I replied (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3191922&postcount=309) because as you pointed out, I don't see how I was rude in that particular post, unless proving somebody else wrong is considered rude (and there's a lot of that going around here, and I myself have been proven wrong in the boards).
 

Nail said:
brehobit: What I think (or rather: "hope") epochrpg is saying is that you can't use two "swift action" maneuvers per round. I'm not sure anyone has said they could, but epochrpg seems to think the point has been over-looked.

You can certainly use a maneuver that takes a swift action and then a maneuver that takes a standard action (or full-round action) in the same round. There are no new rules forbidding that.
I think he's also pointing out something that threw a wrench in the plans of our Warblade last session (yesterday): you cannot use an Immediate action and then use a Swift action in the next round. It's still nothing major, IMHO, but it is there; Martial Adepts have more different resource-management considerations than any other class I can think of, but non of them individually is as much of a big deal. They're stuck with a limited number of maneuvers, but can swap them out fairly often (every other level, IIRC). They have a limited number of those maneuvers actually available in any given fight, but can swap those as well, either out of combat or with a feat (that also re-readies all of their maneuvers). They have more skills they need to spend points on, but they also get more points to spend. They need to be careful of their feat choices, but then so does every other class. They need to manage their actions well, but only because they actually have useful things they can do with swift, immediate, standard, move, and full-round actions. (I could go on, but I think that's more than enough examples).

Right now our Swordsage is happy to putter along, nearly getting killed several times per session, and generally failing to play a huge role in the game. Our Warblade keeps flip-flopping between completely giving up on his maneuvers (and/or lobbying to change his character to a Fighter) on rounds where he rolls poorly, and jumping up and down and screaming when he deals 30+ points of damage to a mook Hobgoblin. Meanwhile, our Fighter is doing all the work, keeping the big threats occupied for multiple turns, clearing entire flanks (that the rest of the party has ignored) of threats, and is even the only one trying any really interesting maneuvers on the battlefield. However, I don't think this really says much about the classes. I could swap those three players' characters and I think I'd get more or less the same result. They chose their characters because they wanted more resource-management in a hand-to-hand class / will grab anything new and shiny / wanted a lot of feats and didn't want the resource-management of a Martial Adept class, respectively.
 

d20 SRD said:
Swift Action
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

If you are the target of White Raven Tactics you can use multiple swift actions in one round. That is why (among other reasons) we've implemented a house rule in our games stating that you may only be the target of 1 WRT in a round.
 

charlesatan said:
And at what point did I become rude? Unless me stating "you're contradicting yourself..." is what you consider rude, which is simply me pointing out the fallacy in your statements.

The appropriate response is "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude".
 

sithramir wrote:

We are 5th level now and I have a fighter and my friend has a warblade. His choices of powers allow him to make a concentration check for reflex or will saves so he has a PLUS 17 which is just insane. (He hasn't taken the fort save ability yet which he'll trade for reflex as it's not as crucial in some cases).

HE DOES 1d20 + 17 damage at 5th level with insightful strike! Double that on a crit! Did I mention he doesn't really need str to do this? His second round he uses mountain hammer and adds 2d6 to his attack damage. So he can't do these things EVERY round? He has to spend a free action to get his abilities back while attacking normally. Must hurt.


One thing that might be noted is that you do not get to double your damage on criticals (or triple etc) with Insightful Strike. As far as I know, Criticals only work with normal weapon damage (c.f. Sneak Attack not multiplying).

In the SRD it states
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

This would lead to the implication that only a weapon's normal damage is multiplied.

Granted this still makes his damage dealing high at 5th level (1d20 +17) but it stops the multipliers stacking.

A Fight at 5th level (wanting to realy power up) should have Weapon Specialisation. Let us assume you are using a Longsword you are doing 1d8 +6 (+2 from Specialisation +4 from Strength).

Now 1d8 +6 seems small BUT the Warblade can only do his Insightful Strike every 2 rounds consistently (the inbetween round for refreshing). This means that over the same period of time the Warblade does 1d20 + 17 while the Fighter does 2d8 + 12. Averages are 27 for Warblade, 20 for Fighter. Not too far apart in this instance but still obvious.

The minute you get to 6th level, however, things change. Warblade still does 1d20 +17 every 2 rounds while the Fighter is now doing 2d8+12 every round. That's 4d8 +24 over 2 rounds which outstrips the Warblade.

Now you stated he likes to Insightful Strike then Mountain Hammer. Then Recover. Over 3 rounds he does 1d20+17 +1d8 +2d6 +2 (assuming minimal Strength and Longsword). This averages to 39 over 3 rounds.

The Fighter comparison would do 3d8+18 which is 27 over 3 rounds.

Lets make them 6th level and the fighter is now doing 6d8+36. Which creams the Warblade.

Of course the above assumes the Fighter can hit on his 2 iterative attacks. He should have Weapon Focus and anything to help him out in this respect.
 


dvvega said:
sithramir wrote:
One thing that might be noted is that you do not get to double your damage on criticals (or triple etc) with Insightful Strike. As far as I know, Criticals only work with normal weapon damage (c.f. Sneak Attack not multiplying).
I'd disagree with this. It replaces that damage, I think it would multiply on a crit just fine. The rule of thumb is that extra damage doesn't multiply. This replaces normal damage. I'd call it good.
 

charlesatan said:
Well at low-levels (and at the higher levels), the WB outstrip the fighter simply because the Ftr doesn't really gain any benefits from full attack (except in a few rare circumstances, such as a TWF Ftr) because he doesn't yet have iterative attacks. In fact, level five and below is the best opportunity to make use of single attacks, such as Spring Attack, which won't get as much mileage at say, 16th level. And yes, "recharging" your maneuvers is cheap at level 5 and below (since Ftr's don't have swift actions to spend on) but you're going to feel it in the higher levels.

As for your 1d20+17 damage, as pointed out by Slaved, you're sacrificing potential attack/damage bonus (since your main stat is now Con instead of Str) and you're relying on that one maneuver instead of overall effectiveness. I'd also like to point out that Insightful Strike is a level 3 maneuver, meaning the character just got it at 5th level and is at it's "most optimum level". I mean if we bump the character's level by one, we'd have either a Ftr 6 or a WB 6, with a base attack of +6/+1 plus whatever modifiers. You have two attacks if you made a full attack and let's assume you're wielding a +1 greatsword and have a strength of 20 (18 base Str, +2 enhancement from a magic item). Your potential damage in each instance is 2d6+8. So now it becomes a 1d20+18 damage vs 4d6+16 (and a higher crit threat range). Granted, both attacks must hit in order to achieve that number, but then again, you also have a higher Str because your stats went to Str instead of Con. And as pointed out, it's a good chunk of investment in feats on the Warblade's part (and he doesn't have lots of those) while the Ftr hasn't spent any in this calculation. Theoretically if he spent two feats on Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec., his attack bonus in each instance will go up to 1, and the damage potential would now be 4d6+20. Not that I'm saying this will always be the result (since as many people pointed out, you won't always get a full attack), but I think we must also accept into our equation that full attacks will occur, and Ftrs want that situation to happen. Of course the WB focusing on the Insightful Strike maneuver tree will be less item dependent (which is both a strength and a weakness, because on one hand, it makes no distinction if you're using an unarmed strike but on the other hand, doesn't benefit you if you're using this colossal +5 greathammer), but at higher levels, Ftrs theoretically should be getting better gear and magic weapons, which the Insightful Strike maneuver tree doesn't really benefit from.

Oh, as for the Diamond Mind counters (the Will save and Ref save you're talking about), that has its own limitations as well. Theoretically you have achieve higher saves, yes, but you must realize that 1) they're immediate actions, which means that's one swift action (usually a boost) that's unavailble to you on your next turn, 2) you're spending a maneuver, which means you might not have access to it again until you "recharge", and 3) doesn't help you against multiple saves in a round since it'll only work once. It might help against the first fireball in the round, but it won't help against the second. Not that the Ftr is in a better position, mind you, but that's one of those days that I'm glad I'm a Paladin and not a Warblade.

And I also mentioned gishes because certain gishes also have a certain sweet spot on certain levels. Take the Duskblade: at 5th level, thanks to Arcane channeling, I can deal my melee damage +5d6 electricity damage (shocking grasp) as a standard action thanks to Arcane Channeling. Granted, I can only do it 5/day minimum and not the infinite potential of martial adepts, but that depends on the encounters your GM throws at you, in the same way that a Warlock will earn his keep if the GM throws 10 encounters/day at players, while the Psion will seem more powerful compared to the Wizard if your GM just has 1 encounter/day.

You are not taking an overall perspective. Yes the fighter fighting two handed with an 18 Str (there is no str enhancing for us yet) using a greatsword has a good damage potential with a full attack. The reality is that he HAS to do that and he still falls way short. I don't want to use a greatsword with every character I make. He has to hit twice to do it (the second attack is at -5 so even if his first attack may be 2 higher from str his second is lessened). He doesn't have this option except for a full attack. A warblade gets to do this on the first attack every time. Maybe if you're fighting poweful creatures you can stand and full attack but in our campaign it's often several NPC's and one might die in that first attack. The fighter has to stand and take some hits to do that. ALSO that's just one power. The warblade can use his next round to mountain hammer and add +2d6 damage. Oh he also gets to ignore all damage reduction so now he has an attack that can strike down a door or bypass any creature that a fighter might have a lot of trouble defeating because of this AND he still has tumble, diplomacy, 4 skill pts per level, d12 hps, and great save potential.

Yes, he can only use his saves once a round at best and needs to recharge to gain it back but he also doesn't fail on a 1 as it's now a concentration check in lieu of a save. Oh no he and the fighter got hit by two fire balls in the same round? My warblade is probably alive because he saved on the first roll and whether or not he failed on the second he's got d12 hps and a maxed out con (which benefits him in many areas). The fighter may be dead on the first or second fireball while the warblade is still standing.

So what that he doesn't benefit from a +5 weapon. INSTEAD he gets to use a +1 wounding, keen, sure-strike, mage bane weapon and still do as much if not more damage than a fighter. He doesn't even need to pay for that +5 weapon unless he wants to boost his to hit some. At higher levels a fighter is using power attack to try to even get close to the damage output of a warblade so his attack is lessened anyways.

Yes he just got this power at 5th level but he keeps getting better powers. Soon he'll be able to add 6d6 with greater mountain hammer, then he'll get greater insightful strike, then ancient mountain hamer, then he'll get the one tha tjust adds 100 damage to his attacks.

I just used level 5 as the example but I doublt you'll find a level where the warblade isn't shining anyways. Maybe "statistically" a fighter with a specific weapon can keep close but that falls short in actual play and that's ignoring all the other powers available to the warblade. The funny thing is that in our campaign as give a Fighter a feat at EVERY level and it still falls short. Maybe you can say fighters were just a bit weak but other classes will find it hard to compete.
 

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