Warblade and Swordsage: Overpowered?

[sithramir]

I'd disagree with this. It replaces that damage, I think it would multiply on a crit just fine. The rule of thumb is that extra damage doesn't multiply. This replaces normal damage. I'd call it good.

It actually states it somewhere in Tome of Battle that this damage would be doubled with a crit. Greater insightful strike says that it's a concentraction check X3 instead of X2 to clarify that this didn't actually double the concentration check X2 and give 4 times the damage.

 

[Artoomis]

I'd disagree with this. It replaces that damage, I think it would multiply on a crit just fine. The rule of thumb is that extra damage doesn't multiply. This replaces normal damage. I'd call it good.

Actually, extra damage dice don't mutiply. Extra damage certainly does.

 

[sithramir]

sithramir wrote:




One thing that might be noted is that you do not get to double your damage on criticals (or triple etc) with Insightful Strike. As far as I know, Criticals only work with normal weapon damage (c.f. Sneak Attack not multiplying).

In the SRD it states


This would lead to the implication that only a weapon's normal damage is multiplied.

Granted this still makes his damage dealing high at 5th level (1d20 +17) but it stops the multipliers stacking.

A Fight at 5th level (wanting to realy power up) should have Weapon Specialisation. Let us assume you are using a Longsword you are doing 1d8 +6 (+2 from Specialisation +4 from Strength).

Now 1d8 +6 seems small BUT the Warblade can only do his Insightful Strike every 2 rounds consistently (the inbetween round for refreshing). This means that over the same period of time the Warblade does 1d20 + 17 while the Fighter does 2d8 + 12. Averages are 27 for Warblade, 20 for Fighter. Not too far apart in this instance but still obvious.

The minute you get to 6th level, however, things change. Warblade still does 1d20 +17 every 2 rounds while the Fighter is now doing 2d8+12 every round. That's 4d8 +24 over 2 rounds which outstrips the Warblade.

Now you stated he likes to Insightful Strike then Mountain Hammer. Then Recover. Over 3 rounds he does 1d20+17 +1d8 +2d6 +2 (assuming minimal Strength and Longsword). This averages to 39 over 3 rounds.

The Fighter comparison would do 3d8+18 which is 27 over 3 rounds.

Lets make them 6th level and the fighter is now doing 6d8+36. Which creams the Warblade.

Of course the above assumes the Fighter can hit on his 2 iterative attacks. He should have Weapon Focus and anything to help him out in this respect.

As stated above he does do double damage on a crit with insightful strike.

Also, noone get's to do a full attack the first round so the fighter only get's one attack that first round. He's suffering a minus five on his second attack to get this damage (which the warblade never suffers). He can take weapon focus and weapon specialization (but so can the warblade). Also, when they both hit 6th level the warblade get's to do two attacks on his second (or third in my friend's case) attack as he's allowed as a free action to recharge. It either takes a standard action or he can do it while doing an attack action and it never states that he cannot do a full attack.

Another option is that a warblade put no points into strength and works for a very high dex and high con character. He can use weapon finesse and get a similar attack option as a strength fighter. Just another option he has.

 

[brehobit]

Actually, extra damage dice don't mutiply. Extra damage certainly does.

Yeah, that's what I meant to write

 

[Slaved]

It actually states it somewhere in Tome of Battle that this damage would be doubled with a crit.

Where does it state this? Without it specifically saying so I would go with it not doubling on a crit based on its wording.

Also you are saying that people are not looking at the overall perspective in relation to the guy doing d20+16 every other round (at most) while seemingly ignoring that it takes 2 feats to get to that point and a bunch of skill points and having to tank strength to get there so having a worse damage normally along with a worse to hit and potentially giving up other bonus attacks (I mentioned haste earlier, two weapon fighting is another good example).

I'd like to see a comparison with the guy doing this and another character designed to do damage in melee combat to see how it works out. I am thinking that the extra to hit will be worth something here plus the other feats going to some other use cannot be ignored. In addition seeing how the various combat buffs that parties are likely to have added in to see how they change the situation.

 

[FireLance]

He can take weapon focus and weapon specialization (but so can the warblade).

This gets brought up very often, but it usually isn't that simple. At 5th level, a warblade gets two feats, three if human, and one bonus feat from a limited list. He can't take Weapon Specialization yet (he's only considered a 3rd level fighter) and if he takes Skill Focus (Concentration) and Weapon Focus, that uses up all his feat choices if he is not human. If he does want to take Weapon Specialization, that's his 6th-level feat slot used up, too. It's as inflexible a build as the greatsword-wielding fighter.

A warblade can potentially do a lot of things, in the same way that a wizard can potentially do a lot of things. However, limited feat slots, maneuvers learned and readied, stances known and in effect, and even the number and type of actions that he is able to perform in a round constrain what he can actually do at any one time.

I don't deny it's a really powerful class (it's one of my favorites, actually ), but it isn't as bad as it is sometimes made out to be.

 

[sithramir]

Where does it state this? Without it specifically saying so I would go with it not doubling on a crit based on its wording.

Also you are saying that people are not looking at the overall perspective in relation to the guy doing d20+16 every other round (at most) while seemingly ignoring that it takes 2 feats to get to that point and a bunch of skill points and having to tank strength to get there so having a worse damage normally along with a worse to hit and potentially giving up other bonus attacks (I mentioned haste earlier, two weapon fighting is another good example).

I'd like to see a comparison with the guy doing this and another character designed to do damage in melee combat to see how it works out. I am thinking that the extra to hit will be worth something here plus the other feats going to some other use cannot be ignored. In addition seeing how the various combat buffs that parties are likely to have added in to see how they change the situation.

It was apparently answered by the sage actually is what my friend just told me. I searched quickly and didn't find it but I'm sure it's there. Anyone else know where it is?

It's taking two feats to maximize his damage (+17 from 18 con, 8 ranks, 3 skill focus, +2 blade meditation) and spending 1 of his 4 skill points on concentration. Since he's 2 up on a fighter it's not hurting him skill point wise. He's doing 1d20 + 17 on the first round. No other character can do that at 5th level. Can you make a character that can statistically do more damage? Yes. But this is only one of the many benefits of the warblade. Two weapon fighting still has to hit with many attacks and can't do it on the first round. Even with the feat to give him two attacks as a standard it won't happen.


Oh I just learned there's an item from Complete Adventurer called the Tunic of Steady Spellcasting. It gives a +5 to concentration checks. In the descriptoin it SPECIFICALLY says it works on all concentration checks. It costs 2500 gp.

So the fifth level character now does 1d20+22. Everyone whos' just statistically gotten close to comparison with their statistics can retry since we got a +5 boost. Did I mention he has a +22 concentration check for a will save, reflex save, or fort save if he chooses without a chance of failure now? Don't forget the d12 hps, diplomacy and tumple skills, ability to get weapon focus, weapon adaptation, etc. The only thing he's lost is a few attack points from a lower strength. The fact is this isn't a negative since for you to get damage output similar to this you either need multiple attacks, power attack, or something similar which all lower your attack bonus anyways (or your attack bonus on the second attack).

The class has the ability to deal insane damage, have the highest BAB and hps (higher since con is one of the most important stats), have the best saves in the game, gaining more or equal skill points to all other full attack bonus classes, gaining tumble and diplomacy, can get weapon specialization and other fighter feats, can change his weapon specialization (which even a fighter can't), etc, etc, etc. It's fun to play and have in the group power wise I suppose. So he has to sacrifice a round to recover these things? He can do that while full attacking still or moving (tumbling) and doing it getting to other opponents. Trying to show that a wizard or two handed fighting character can potentially out damage him is minor overall (especially since it's hard to do even statistically).

 

[sithramir]

This gets brought up very often, but it usually isn't that simple. At 5th level, a warblade gets two feats, three if human, and one bonus feat from a limited list. He can't take Weapon Specialization yet (he's only considered a 3rd level fighter) and if he takes Skill Focus (Concentration) and Weapon Focus, that uses up all his feat choices if he is not human. If he does want to take Weapon Specialization, that's his 6th-level feat slot used up, too. It's as inflexible a build as the greatsword-wielding fighter.

A warblade can potentially do a lot of things, in the same way that a wizard can potentially do a lot of things. However, limited feat slots, maneuvers learned and readied, stances known and in effect, and even the number and type of actions that he is able to perform in a round constrain what he can actually do at any one time.

I don't deny it's a really powerful class (it's one of my favorites, actually ), but it isn't as bad as it is sometimes made out to be.

You're right. He had to take those feats and nothing else. Though he was human and had another. Without it he still does 1d20 +17 assuming he has his new Tunic of Steady Spellcasting. The reason he takes those is why not? How else do you get two feats to give +5 damage. His options are the same as a fighter with added benefits.

Just try DM'ing someone with a warblade who does 1d20 + 22 in their first round attack. How many characters does the group fight that has enough hps to survive that?

 

[Slaved]

It was apparently answered by the sage actually is what my friend just told me.

The sage speaking means nothing to me. If someone can find it in the book though that would be nice.

It's taking two feats to maximize his damage (+17 from 18 con, 8 ranks, 3 skill focus, +2 blade meditation) and spending 1 of his 4 skill points on concentration.

If we are going back to having the 18 constitution then yes, it is +17. Earlier the guy had 16 con, hence the +16 instead.

He's doing 1d20 + 17 on the first round. No other character can do that at 5th level.

Actually, he is attempting to do that much, he still has to get near his target and succeed at an attack roll and then whatever else might come up.

And while it is true that no other character can do d20+17 there are builds which can do similar average damage.

Can you make a character that can statistically do more damage? Yes.

This pretty well nullfies the arguement as far as I can tell.

Yes, the warblade can do other things, most of which are melee attacks. I could also say that most of them are combat only.

At least he has slightly better skills than a fighter.

Oh I just learned there's an item from Complete Adventurer called the Tunic of Steady Spellcasting. It gives a +5 to concentration checks. In the descriptoin it SPECIFICALLY says it works on all concentration checks. It costs 2500 gp.

Now it looks like you are trading your +1 weapon in for +5 potential damage every other round at most.

At this point we are up to two feats, the highest level manuever available, a manuever every other round at most, single target, melee only, nearly a third of the money he has for his level, 16 point buy points, and who knows what else. I would certainly hope it is impressive!

I still want to see it compared with some other guy though. How about a 5th level fighter with a two handed weapon? He will have an 18 str like your guy has an 18 for con. I am guessing that his strength will be 14 or less, especially as he is a light armor fighter. 14 strength, 14 dex, 18 con is already 28 point buy points though, I doubt he will like having 8's in everything else, especially if he wants to make use of several of his class features.

Well, nail said 28 point buy. You spent 16 on con, where are the other 12 points going?

 

[dvvega]

Actually I was just looking over Complete Arcane for a concept I was thinking of - a Wizard who immobilises his targets instead of trying to kill them and I found Bands of Steel.

Reflex save or not the target is Entangled at the very least requiring a Strength check or Escape Artist to get out of it each round. If he doesn't save he is Helpless.

Now that spell messes up the Warblade we are discussing here. In fact if the Wizard can cast two of them, the DC for the second Reflex save should be 19 with School Specialisation. The Warblade isn't going to last long if the Wizard brought friends.