Warlock in Play

[Lonely Tylenol]

Haven't tried it in play yet...we'll see what happens if my RttTOEE character dies and my DM is feeling generous with the pretty new non-core book. However, from first glance the class looks like it will turn out to be pretty balanced with minimal tweaking. It looks like it's going to play something like an arcane Wilder...lots of blasting, a (very) few special tricks, and if you can find out what the warlock you're facing can't respond to due to his limited repertoire, you will beat him easily. A good support character, easily grappled into submission, easy to kill if you can get in close with a tank fighter due to low HP, and it looks like it will be pleasingly customizable, since you get so few invocations and so many of them are interesting. Ironically, a wilder would do well against one due to the high touch AC...

As for the Eldritch Chain invocation...keep in mind that you need to make a ranged touch attack for each additional target, and if you miss it stops there. Also, the damage for each target is half of what the first target took. So the 12th level warlock in question only does 3d6 damage to each additional target. I suspect there should be some reduction for save DCs for additional targets (like there is for Chain Spell), but it was left out...we'll see if that's errata'd.

The major limitation to the Warlock seems to be that he can do one thing really well, but not much else. He blasts people. He's great at blasting them. He's a great guy to have on your side if you can't get a chance to rest and recover spells. But the sorcerer (or kineticist) is probably a better blaster overall if you don't have to keep it going all day without running out of juice. There are many strategies for fighting a warlock. How about to begin with, Entropic Shield? 20% miss chance on all ray attacks, no matter what the warlock's level is, for a 1st level spell. He's also got poor reflex and fort saves, so nail him with high-damage spells or save-or-die spells. The average wizard of equivalent level will kill or seriously wound a warlock who fails his reflex save if he can hit him with a fireball or lightning bolt.

Anyway, a monk will wipe the floor with this guy. Crazy touch AC, super grappling, fast movement to close with him from outside the 60' blasting range, spell resistance at higher levels... Got warlock problems? Hire a monk.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

ahem... a class that can dispel at will, at 6th level, with no upper cap for its level bonus to dispel (so it effectively has greater dispel, too ), does also do damage to those it dispels with this power has certain abuse potential.
And of course, you can simply try dispel any magical obstacle that you encounter until you simply roll high enough, ad infinitum. Given that a Warlock can dispel 10 times a minute.... within 5 minutes, any magical ward will almost certainly have been blasted to smithereens. (I guess it is fairly save to assume that any warlock will roll something like an 18 to 20 even once in 50 dispels rolls - which even at level 6 dispels a spell cast by a 14th level caster).
Perfect counterspelling machine, too, he may not succeed everytime, but he will never run out of spell slots like the opposition most certainly will.
Or snipe away at 200'+ range, possibly with a chained effect, then run to cover and turn invis, move some, rinse, repeat...
And of course the Warlock has has access to (close range though) Dim Door, Invis at will (and it lasts 24 hours, too ), Fly, 24 hours buffs (including blindvision and see invis ), a unlimited duration charm and mental bonus effects to its ranged attacks among its invocations powers. And his magical damage is non-elemental, hence impossible to resist but through SR.
Plus getting "Use Magic Device", plus the ability to create any magic item despite not even knowing the spells ( both divine and arcane ). Better skill selection than the sorcerer, better HP, some DR, can wear light armour without spellfailure... gains minor elemental resistances, too (all of this before twelfth level... ). Basically it makes a nuking sorcerer feel depressingly obsolete and outclassed... of course there are invocations animating lesser undead, for long range journey (emulating Shadow Walk ), summoning swarms or confusing the opposition too.... he cannot have all, but he can invoke these 1/round, all day long.
Sounds great to play, and nightmarish to go up against, right ?

I really like the concept behind the warlock and the style of magic they try to achieve, but I have severe doubts that it proves well-balanced in actual campaign use - especially in low level stories, where other casters quickly run out of spells. They do not hit as hard as other casters may (but hard enough) , but they can throw blast after blast until the world ends. They can be very deadly and especially so, if the players get to face one played capably by the GM. Given space to manouevere, a warlock can and will grind almost anyone into submission or flight. He just needs to be careful not to be silenced or grappled - and basically every caster should be.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

You know, when you just list all the potential warlock abilities like that, it makes it seem as though a warlock could choose to have more than just a few of them...

 

[Particle_Man]

I have been allowed a halfling 8th level Warlock (with a slight nerf -- light armor carries an armor spell check penalty, contra the book). So far I haven't had a chance to blast anything, but have Eldritch Spear, Hideous Blow, and Eldrtich Chain ready. I took See the Unseen, and with Detect Magic, have been "scanning" a lot. Picked up that one of our npc workers had a magical aura, traceable to a "Family heirloom", which was interesting from a roleplay pov. I also took Flee the Scene, coward that I am. I have a black wand of cure light wounds that I might try to fake people out with in combination with Flee the Scene (what would you do if you saw someone draw a wand and point it at you from a distance?). I have used Flee the Scene exactly twice, one to demonstrate my power to the party, and once to , well, flee the scene after they set off a trap (of our own making, but you can read all about it in the stupid player thread). So I haven't gotten a chance to try out combat yet.

I have forgone the chr route, and am focused on dex in my point buy character. And I took Weapon Finess, P-B shot and precise shot. I plan to get create wondrous item at 9th and make a chasuble of fell power.

Part of the reason I took hideous blow and weapon finesse is that our party has no tanks, so you never know who will be the unlucky guy who gets charged and meeleed. And god help me if I get grappled, but every class has a weakness.

 

[kevmarq13]

ahem... a class that can dispel at will, at 6th level, with no upper cap for its level bonus to dispel (so it effectively has greater dispel, too ), does also do damage to those it dispels with this power has certain abuse potential.

Voracious Dispelling - "You can use Dispel Magic as the spell"
Max caster level of 10 just as regular for dispel magic. Very useful? Definately. Overpowered? Only if you always fight mid level guys that can't do anything without their buffs.

Perfect counterspelling machine, too, he may not succeed everytime, but he will never run out of spell slots like the opposition most certainly will.

See All about Spell-Like abilities (part 2) "A spell-like ability cannot be used as a counterspell" So there goes counterspelling all day long.

Or snipe away at 200'+ range, possibly with a chained effect, then run to cover and turn invis, move some, rinse, repeat...
And of course the Warlock has has access to (close range though) Dim Door, Invis at will (and it lasts 24 hours, too ), Fly, 24 hours buffs (including blindvision and see invis ), a unlimited duration charm and mental bonus effects to its ranged attacks among its invocations powers. And his magical damage is non-elemental, hence impossible to resist but through SR.
Plus getting "Use Magic Device", plus the ability to create any magic item despite not even knowing the spells ( both divine and arcane ). Better skill selection than the sorcerer, better HP, some DR, can wear light armour without spellfailure... gains minor elemental resistances, too (all of this before twelfth level... ). Basically it makes a nuking sorcerer feel depressingly obsolete and outclassed... of course there are invocations animating lesser undead, for long range journey (emulating Shadow Walk ), summoning swarms or confusing the opposition too.... he cannot have all, but he can invoke these 1/round, all day long.
Sounds great to play, and nightmarish to go up against, right ?

Well no 200+ ft sniping with chaining, both are blast shapes you can only apply one. By the time you get walk unseen(invis) rings of invis aren't beyond reason, allowing the same thing. Same with flight, choose your boots or cape either works. While he can cast charm all day long, only one enemy can be charmed at a time, and it still has all the limitations(including duration) of charm monster. The eldritch blast is similiar in damage to a rogue's sneak attack except you'll only ever be able to use it once per round. Granted its not easy to resist but on average once other party members start hitting multiple attacks it will feel weak.

I really like the concept behind the warlock and the style of magic they try to achieve, but I have severe doubts that it proves well-balanced in actual campaign use - especially in low level stories, where other casters quickly run out of spells. They do not hit as hard as other casters may (but hard enough) , but they can throw blast after blast until the world ends. They can be very deadly and especially so, if the players get to face one played capably by the GM. Given space to manouevere, a warlock can and will grind almost anyone into submission or flight. He just needs to be careful not to be silenced or grappled - and basically every caster should be.

I agree, the concept of the warlock is quite good. I started one at 1st level and we are up to 7th now. While I can do what I do all day long, so can the fighters and with more damage. I have some fancy abilities that are fun to show off with, but not even as much flexibility as a sorcerer. While I can blast all day long the party typically packs it up for the night once the main casters run out of spells. I can see a warlock making a nice place in campaigns where time is critical or when there are lots of encounters. Overall, I'd have to see I feel a bit underpowered, but the concept is so fun that I don't care and am having a blast.

To the people nerfing the warlock without even trying it. It looks pretty scary at first, but give it a try it fits in rather nicely.

 

[Humanophile]

Voracious Dispelling - "You can use Dispel Magic as the spell"
Max caster level of 10 just as regular for dispel magic. Very useful? Definately. Overpowered? Only if you always fight mid level guys that can't do anything without their buffs.
...
See All about Spell-Like abilities (part 2) "A spell-like ability cannot be used as a counterspell" So there goes counterspelling all day long.

While I agree that Voracious Dispelling is capped at level ten (that's when Devour Magic starts becoming nice), I was under the impression that the dispel-limitation merely meant that you couldn't use a SLA to counter the same spell or vice versa. However, the same way that Magic Missle or Silence could be used as a counterspell due to its effects, the countering ability of Dispel Magic is due to its effects, not the inherent nature of the spell. So while you couldn't use the invocation to surefire counter your opponent's Dispel Magic spell, you could force a roll on just about anything offered.

 

[Spatula]

You're right, and kevmarq13 even provided the link to disprove his own point.

dispel magic is not really a counterspell.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

You know, when you just list all the potential warlock abilities like that, it makes it seem as though a warlock could choose to have more than just a few of them...

oh wait lets just compare him to a sorcerer.
Sorcerer at level 6 has 7 spells (4x1st level, 2x2nd level, 1 3rd level ), a familliar, 6D4 HP and... hmm, that's it
At least one, more likely two, spells of these will be attack/offensive spells, dealing damage. This leaves 5 or 6 spells at best for "other stuff" - one of these will likely be "mage armour" or "shield" to help with the AC. Leaving 4 spells.
His buffs last at most 1 hour ( 6th level x10 minutes ), with the possible exception of "water breathing" and "mage armour".

Warlock of 6th level has Eldritch Blast (3d6 ray, non-elemental) and 4 other invocations (lets assume them to be Invis at will, 250' range for EB, Dispel Magic at will ,and See Invis.+Darkvision - a race with innate Darkvision might substitute Spider climb (24 hours) or get it instead of 250' range for blast for a more indoor-focused build). His buffs last 24 hours and can be repeated at will. He has "Detect Magic" at will. The Spider climb also makes him immune to webs just as an aside.
He also has 6d6 HP, can use wands, staves and spells/scrolls not meant for an arcane caster with an UMD check (in which he is likely to have up to 9 ranks, plus his CHA bonus which incidentally is his main attribute) on which he can "take 10" any time (class ability). He also has DR 1/cold iron (it will invrease to DR 2/cold iron at level 7. Not to forget light armour (so he can forego mage armour etc. ) proficiency and it does not affect arcane spell failure.

So which would you pick ? Even given that the sorceror might be build more flexibly, or might have a higher damage cap for single attacks (although these usually carry a save for half damage), I have little doubt which of the two to invite for a dungeon crawl. Same for an overland trip through hostile territory with possible raids at any moment. And be it even for the small benefit that a warlock can guard the camp at night like any fighter, rogue etc. because he does not need any period of recovery beyond those imposed by his race ?

 

[pbd]

oh wait lets just compare him to a sorcerer.
Sorcerer at level 6 has 7 spells (4x1st level, 2x2nd level, 1 3rd level ), a familliar, 6D4 HP and... hmm, that's it
At least one, more likely two, spells of these will be attack/offensive spells, dealing damage. This leaves 5 or 6 spells at best for "other stuff" - one of these will likely be "mage armour" or "shield" to help with the AC. Leaving 4 spells.
His buffs last at most 1 hour ( 6th level x10 minutes ), with the possible exception of "water breathing" and "mage armour".

Warlock of 6th level has Eldritch Blast (3d6 ray, non-elemental) and 4 other invocations (lets assume them to be Invis at will, 250' range for EB, Dispel Magic at will ,and See Invis.+Darkvision - a race with innate Darkvision might substitute Spider climb (24 hours) or get it instead of 250' range for blast for a more indoor-focused build). His buffs last 24 hours and can be repeated at will. He has "Detect Magic" at will. The Spider climb also makes him immune to webs just as an aside.
He also has 6d6 HP, can use wands, staves and spells/scrolls not meant for an arcane caster with an UMD check (in which he is likely to have up to 9 ranks, plus his CHA bonus which incidentally is his main attribute) on which he can "take 10" any time (class ability). He also has DR 1/cold iron (it will invrease to DR 2/cold iron at level 7. Not to forget light armour (so he can forego mage armour etc. ) proficiency and it does not affect arcane spell failure.

So which would you pick ? Even given that the sorceror might be build more flexibly, or might have a higher damage cap for single attacks (although these usually carry a save for half damage), I have little doubt which of the two to invite for a dungeon crawl. Same for an overland trip through hostile territory with possible raids at any moment. And be it even for the small benefit that a warlock can guard the camp at night like any fighter, rogue etc. because he does not need any period of recovery beyond those imposed by his race ?

Your arguements could be construed to show that the Sorcerer is underpowered, which is something that I have heard frequently (especially at lower levels), as much as the Warlock is overpowered.

Mages/Sorcs etc. are generally not the toughest combat classes out there until they get to higher levels, but they have many abilities that a party may find very useful that the Warlock doesn't.

At first glance it looks like the Warlock is much more focussed on combat and may even get outclassed for that at higher levels by other arcane classes.

pbd

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well it depends, doesn't it? The sorcerer can also cast spider climb, darkvision, see invisibility, and probably dispel magic. His spells don't need a 250' range because many of them are already 400'. The long duration and "at will" nature of the warlock's powers are moot. Who needs spider climb for 24 hours anyway? The rest of the party has to rest every so often, so it doesn't matter that the warlock is still good to go. The sorcerer will have Fireball (or lightning bolt) at level 6 or level 7 if he took dispel at 6th, which is going to leave the eldritch blast in the dust for damage if there happens to be more than one opponent at a time...a common occurrence, no? And Fireball/Lighting Bolt aren't the only area-of-effect damage spells either. The warlock gets area effects at higher levels, but by that time the sorc is hurling around Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, and Delayed Blast Fireball. The warlock is non-typed damage, but it's one opponent at a time unless you start giving up your nifty powers in order to enhance it. The sorcerer gets that for free, and Energy Substitution goes a long way to solving the problem of typed energy damage.

He doesn't get damage reduction or use magic device, but that's what the Cleric is for anyway: damage management and using cleric items. The UMD ability is just a nice fringe benefit, especially considering that the warlock can't use Arcane items normally and must roll for them, which the Sorc doesn't have to do.

If I wanted a crowd-control blaster who could also throw a couple of utility spells to help the party, I'd take a sorcerer. If I wanted a self-sufficient sniper who's good at a few nasty tricks as well, I'd take a warlock.