Warlock in Play

[Thanee]

Havn't played with a Warlock yet, but one player will make a Warlock next time.

I think the Warlock is quite powerful in the low (i.e. 3rd - a 2d6 ranged touch attack at will alone is pretty good then ) to mid range levels, but at higher levels, I believe, the power will quickly fade compared to the real spellcasters.

Bye
Thanee

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Well it depends, doesn't it? The sorcerer can also cast spider climb, darkvision, see invisibility, and probably dispel magic. His spells don't need a 250' range because many of them are already 400'.

Please name me 2 attack spells with a range better than 160' (medium range at 6th level ) both available to a 6th level sorcecer, Magic Missile = Medium range, Scorching Ray = close, etc etc etc. Fireball is the main "long" range attack spell - and that has its own disadvantages due to its AE size.

The long duration and "at will" nature of the warlock's powers are moot.

Not if they mean they will constantly be on - a constant "see invis" is certainly major power gain. Basically this means you are hard pressed to approach or trail this warlock's group invisible or ethereal. To my mind that is a major defensive advantage to him and his compatriots, eliminating a lot of surprise situations out of hand. Especially since the enemy has no real way to know that he does actually "see invis", at will, hence, will try to use that tactic with fullest confidence. Constant Blindvision ? The same bonus. etc etc etc

Who needs spider climb for 24 hours anyway?

Well the point is the Warlock has this power available at any time, while a sorcerer has to consider spending a spell slot to get the effect for a limited amount of time. The warlock gains perfect climbing skill and can basically walk/climb around any solid underground obstacle at will. Big chasm in floor too wide to jump ? Warlock waltzes over along the ceiling fastens rope, no problem. Bad guys chasing you into a cul de sac ? Turn invis and walk up the wall and grin while your pursuers stand around mystified how you escaped through the wall. Face a melee monster withourt ranged capability ? Run up the wall, nuke him from there safely out of his reach. the warlock - as the power lasts 24 hours does not even have to waste a standard action to initiate these tactics... I have absolutely no idea why you consider "spider climb" useless.

The rest of the party has to rest every so often, so it doesn't matter that the warlock is still good to go.

Perhaps the other guys in the party realize that letting the warlock do many of the "chore" jobs sustains their own resources and hence endurance , too ? Because they don't have to waste their spells for mopping up hard to reach targets ? Because combat tends to last shorter with the opposition's buffs dispelled at leisure ?

The sorcerer will have Fireball (or lightning bolt) at level 6 or level 7 if he took dispel at 6th, which is going to leave the eldritch blast in the dust for damage if there happens to be more than one opponent at a time...a common occurrence, no?

Both spells (as well as their many worthwhile brethren like Scintilliating Sphere, Acid Breath, Shatterfloor etc have the disadvantage of being rather hard to target, as you want to leave your comrades out of the AoE. Plus, all of these magics have a save for half damage. Besides being subject to elemental resistances for a further decrease in damage... Not to mention evasion and elemental immunity. Where these spell shine is in wiping out hordes of low-HD cannonfodder, and possibly hurting their bigger brethren. They look great on paper though, in calculations of possible maximum damage.

And I have yet to see "Energy Substitution" saving the day vs. all strong saves opposition like outsiders etc.. Which sorcerer has more than one type, and since when is "sonic" - the only energy type to which hardly anyone is resistant or immune a viable choice for the v3.5 version of that feat again ?
Plus, the sorcerer needs to spend 1 feat before even qualifying for that particular solution, and he needs it once for every alternate energy type he intends to use... Now, sorcerer's don't really have too many feats in the first place, at least to my experience.

He doesn't get damage reduction or use magic device, but that's what the Cleric is for anyway: damage management and using cleric items. The UMD ability is just a nice fringe benefit, especially considering that the warlock can't use Arcane items normally and must roll for them, which the Sorc doesn't have to do.

So the cleric in your games never goes down, is too busy or temporarily incapacipated because the smart opposition shoots for the healer ? And yes the warlock can simply buy himself a bunch of scrolls (or even funnier write them himself at level 12+ ), to have all those nifty "special situation" spells handy - clerical (harder to use, but it can be done ) or arcane ? As for "he has to roll for their use".
Yes, he certainly does, but then again he can take "10" on that particular skill, which at level 6 should yield him totals of 19+CHA bonus without touching his dice... usually that is close enough to activate most items (considering that most Warlocks will have as high a CHA as they can, - for the save DC alone ). At 12th level we are of course talking 25 + CHA bonus (and he hasn't even considered taking a Feat boosting this skill yet). He can simply use bardic and druidic items, too, which many parties simply don't have a use for ( lacking both or one of the classes ) but might find useful. And trapped in a remote place, given the necessary materials and the feat, he can simply whip up a scroll of any particular magic one might need to go home - without even having access to the spell or a source for it . Another major boon, in my book at least.

If I wanted a crowd-control blaster who could also throw a couple of utility spells to help the party, I'd take a sorcerer. If I wanted a self-sufficient sniper who's good at a few nasty tricks as well, I'd take a warlock.

I guess in that case, I guess you simply miss a lot of the (abusable) possibilities of a cleverly played warlock. The sole thing I don't really see him doing is "shapechanging" and "polymorphing" over the place. And just for the record, which utility spells does a sorcerer, with his already limited spell load usually pack ?

 

[drnuncheon]

After skimming over the warlock for a few minutes, it seemed to me that this class is the DM's dream magical BBEG. Tougher than a regular spellcaster for extra staying power, with no need to keep track of spell slots or choose from all the spells out there.

J

 

[pbd]

Uzagi_Akimbo

You seem to tthink this class is vastly overpowered, but I think you are overlooking some major limitations.

The Warlock may have unlimited uses of the EB and invocations, but is severlt limited by the number of invocations known.

Take an 8th level Warlock vs an 8th level Sorcerer.

The Warlock gets unlimited uses of their invocations and has some pretty good choices, but has a total of 5 (3 least and 2 lesser) to choose from.

The Sorcere has at least 22 spells per day (7 - 1st lvl, 7 - 2nd lvl, 5 - 3rd lvl, 3 - 4th lvl) with a 14 charisma (minimum to cast 4th level spells; in reality it should be much higher) and 11 spells known (5 - 1st lvl, 3 - 2nd lvl, 2 - 3rd lvl, 1 - 4th lvl) and this doesn't include cantrips.

The Warlock's EB does 4d6 damage with a ranged touch attack and range of 60' unless he has Eldritch Spear, which increases the range to 250.

The Sorcere can do 8d6 damage 12 times (scorching ray or fireball/lightning bolt) as either a ranged touch attack or automatically (with a save for half damage) AND 5d6 damage 3 times (ice storm) or even out and out kill the opponent phanstasmal killer (save for 20 damage).

The Sorcere potentially has 15 attacks per day that can do more damage than the Warlock's EB. PLus even if the Sorcerer has all of the above damage spells, he still has 8 other spells known.

The Warlock has 5 total invocations known at 8th level regardless of charisma, 4 if he wanst his EB to have a range of 250'.

Keep this in mind when you explicate about how powerful the Warlock is compared to other classes. If he had access to every invocation whenever he wanted it he would be ready for every situation (and overpowered), however he has to choose carefully and will be limited in usefulness by his choices.

pbd

 

[Abstraction]

It seems to me a lot of the things that are complained about the warlock having on 24/7 another character can get through a Permanency spell, although at an XP cost and subject to dispel. Still, if a sorceror, wizard or a character with UMD wanted this ability, all it would take is a couple scrolls.

 

[ARandomGod]

Sue, have you actually used the warlock in play, or are you basing your judgement on what's in the book?

Most of the objections to the warlock seem just like those that were raised against the mystic theurge. I was one of those who felt the MT's greater spell capacity would make it greatly overpowered relative to "normal" spellcasters. But after I actually watched an MT in play for several sessions, I realized they're a lot more balanced than they seem; if anything, they're weaker than the single-classed casters. Once my copy of CA arrives, I expect to find the same thing about warlocks.

We've played with one, and are playing with one. Level 12... He's still extremely powerful even with the nerfs meantioned. Still, I do agree that there should be more playtesting to see his real general power level. As I said, I think that the nerfs that were done were done too soon. We'll see. There's still a Mirror of Opposition floating around out there. (Sure, maybe I should have smashed it instead of selling it... After all, apparently I'm still out there trying to kill me too.)

After skimming over the warlock for a few minutes, it seemed to me that this class is the DM's dream magical BBEG. Tougher than a regular spellcaster for extra staying power, with no need to keep track of spell slots or choose from all the spells out there.

J

AND no need for magic items other than simple scrolls. Use 'em once, no loot for the party!

Havn't played with a Warlock yet, but one player will make a Warlock next time.

I think the Warlock is quite powerful in the low (i.e. 3rd - a 2d6 ranged touch attack at will alone is pretty good then ) to mid range levels, but at higher levels, I believe, the power will quickly fade compared to the real spellcasters.

Bye
Thanee

It'll be interesting to see as they level up to really high levels. As I said, we're at level 12, which is only the beginning. And already my mage is, at least fresh... well, almost on par power wise and definitly more flexible. After a big fight it's a different story, of course.

I recomment going the high charisma route, spear and chain shapes, bewitching blast with an eventual utterdark blast. And whatever else seems appropriat to your campaign. I might not get invisibility, going for the ring instead. But the Dimension Door... you really can't get that at anywhere near cost effectiveness.

But it's definitly harsh to be able to hit several enemies with a damaging blast, AND they have to save or be confused (and/or whichever essence you choose)

Of course, do tell us your opinion after you've seen the class in action! I suspect, of course, that there will be a more recent thread by then. I suspect there will be several as it gets out, much like there was on the MysticTheurge

 

[ARandomGod]

It seems to me a lot of the things that are complained about the warlock having on 24/7 another character can get through a Permanency spell, although at an XP cost and subject to dispel. Still, if a sorceror, wizard or a character with UMD wanted this ability, all it would take is a couple scrolls.

I noticed that too.
I personally don't really see a problem with any of the invocations that aren't related to the blast.
Invisibility all day? There's a magic item for that
Detect magic all day? If there's not one for that, one wouldn't be hard to make. And acrane sight works better, you can permanent that.
Dimension door? Well... there isn't an item for that. Just charges per day. And it's not really physcally sound to try to make that at will! (Go add up what the price would be under the guidelines!)
Spider climb? Cheap slippers, or a more expensive cloak.
Darkvision? Also pretty easy to get.

That dispel magic, however... and it damages those it dispells. Nasty. Effectively greater dispel, really... it does look like it levels with you. No magic items for that.

But mostly, I think that it's the EB and the related essenses. Those scale with your level, so the save DC is always that of the highest level spell you could "cast". To the not inconsiderable damage you can add a shape (one of which is a chain to hit multiple targets) and

*Will save or shaken
*Fort save or sicken
*Fort save or blind (1ound)
*Fort save or -4 to dex (ten! minutes)
*Will save or confused (1ound)
*Fort save or nauseated
*Reflex save or knockedback
*Fort save or LOSE TWO LEVELS (These negative levels stack, but fade in an hour)

Of course, you can only apply one of those... you don't get access to all of them at once, getting one means not getting something else (they really do have a limited number of invocations)... But when you gain access to a new, more powerful one you can chose to switch out your lesser one for an "other" invocation (or a different one of these of equal or lesser level).

But still...
They're all done with the highest level DC possible for your level... Take your level and divide by two, plus 10 plus ability mod. Get yourself a high mod and perhaps the Ability Focus:Edlritch Blast (+2 to DC's) and you've got nigh unresistable secondary effects piled on top of already very nasty damage.

Going without a high charisma, or ignoring these essences will go a long way towards making your character more balanced. (If balance is what you're looking for. Feel the power of the Blast Side) But that brings me to a different point. There is NO prime ability modifier! That's right, nothing, and I mean NOTHING other than taking an ability score to zero (an ability which kills or leaves unconcious at zero) will stop this guy from performing invocations along the ability score front. Feeble mind ME? HA! UTTERDARK BLAST!
^_^

 

[Anabstercorian]

Do recall that negative levels aren't level loss, only a penalty to actions - you never actually lose feats or skills or the like (though for a while there I was terrified of losing my Whirlwind Attack feat when fighting a swarm of wights.)

 

[ARandomGod]

Do recall that negative levels aren't level loss, only a penalty to actions - you never actually lose feats or skills or the like (though for a while there I was terrified of losing my Whirlwind Attack feat when fighting a swarm of wights.)

True... and these can never be permanent, like some level loss can. But, they're pretty hefty penalties. And if you're a spellcaster you lose your highest spell available for each level lost, so it's a spell that never gets cast. AND, while it's not level loss, you'll still die if you get as many negative levels as you have levels. Ten hits kills a twentieth level character. (Of course, assuming the warlock is 20th level too, you're doing 9d6 per hit, ten hits would be 90d6... that'll generally kill a twentieth level character all on it's own... with an average of 315 damage. So I suppose that part is relatively moot.)

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Please name me 2 attack spells with a range better than 160' (medium range at 6th level ) both available to a 6th level sorcecer, Magic Missile = Medium range, Scorching Ray = close, etc etc etc. Fireball is the main "long" range attack spell - and that has its own disadvantages due to its AE size.

Fireball and Melf's Acid Arrow. Do note, as well, that for a 6th level sorc, fireball does 6d6 damage, save for 1/2, to all targets in the area of effect. Half damage is 3d6, which is what a 6th level warlock does with his eldritch blast to a single target. Since you emphasize the warlock's ability to strike from 250', let me point out that the sorcerer's party members aren't likely to be standing 250' away next to some enemies.

Not to mention that the sorcerer can throw fireballs 650' away, over twice the warlock's range...not that being able to shoot that far ever actually matters for either class, even outdoors. When we close to more standard distances, at which point fireball stops being quite so useful (although a clever sorcerer will almost always be able to find a way to use it) the Eldritch Spear stops being useful. Seeing as how it's one of only 4 invocations the warlock has at 6th level, this is a major loss of utility for the warlock. Only one of those invocations is a lesser invocation anyway.

Also keep in mind that as nice as some of these invocations are, they only work on the warlock. Sure he can become invisible at will, but the rest of his party can't, and he can't make them invisible, although the sorcerer could. He can spider climb forever, which means that he's up on the ceiling attracting missile and magic fire.

Not if they mean they will constantly be on - a constant "see invis" is certainly major power gain. Basically this means you are hard pressed to approach or trail this warlock's group invisible or ethereal. To my mind that is a major defensive advantage to him and his compatriots, eliminating a lot of surprise situations out of hand. Especially since the enemy has no real way to know that he does actually "see invis", at will, hence, will try to use that tactic with fullest confidence. Constant Blindvision ? The same bonus. etc etc etc

Unless someone figures out he's a warlock and decides that since the See the Unseen power is so good every warlock must have it, he can probably see invisible people. Test it with a low-level mook with a potion of invisibility, then if he's caught send things after him with ranks in hide instead of magic concealment. I don't see Spot on the warlock class skill list.

Well the point is the Warlock has this power available at any time, while a sorcerer has to consider spending a spell slot to get the effect for a limited amount of time. The warlock gains perfect climbing skill and can basically walk/climb around any solid underground obstacle at will. Big chasm in floor too wide to jump ?

Yeah, cause we all know how troublesome those big chasms are on a daily basis. Look, if you find yourself casting Spider Climb more than once a day maximum, invest in some Slippers. Otherwise take note that the sorcerer could give Spider Climb to his entire party if he wanted to, or just to someone with more hit points and armour so when the hidden chokers catch him crawling over the ceiling it's not the sorcerer who gets attacked.

Warlock waltzes over along the ceiling fastens rope, no problem. Bad guys chasing you into a cul de sac ? Turn invis and walk up the wall and grin while your pursuers stand around mystified how you escaped through the wall. Face a melee monster withourt ranged capability ? Run up the wall, nuke him from there safely out of his reach. the warlock - as the power lasts 24 hours does not even have to waste a standard action to initiate these tactics... I have absolutely no idea why you consider "spider climb" useless.

Don't put words in my mouth. Spider Climb is definitely useful. I challenge the usefulness of having it 24 hours a day, considering the number of times it comes in handy. Melee monster without ranged capability? Run up the wall and watch as the melee monster walks around the corner waiting for you to come down so it can eat you rather than stand there and get blasted like an idiot. There are reasons why a warlock would choose this invocation. But it's not the overwhelming advantage you seem to think it is. Especially because our theoretical warlock is always fighting outside to take advantage of Eldritch Spear, remember? Of course if he does that, he's wasting another precious invocation on Spiderwalk.

Perhaps the other guys in the party realize that letting the warlock do many of the "chore" jobs sustains their own resources and hence endurance , too ? Because they don't have to waste their spells for mopping up hard to reach targets ? Because combat tends to last shorter with the opposition's buffs dispelled at leisure ?

Dispel Magic at will is indeed a nifty ability. Of course, when you're doing all this dispelling, you can't activate your invisibility, nor can you use your Eldritch Blast. But that's neither here nor there. The assumption is that most things parties of adventurers face are monsters, and monsters aren't usually buffed. Consider that a sorcerer can cast Dispel Magic on his party members who are Charmed, Slowed, Held, etc. without having to worry about harming them. Not that 1 HP/spell level is a huge damage effect anyway. Certainly not worth worrying about as a balancing factor in the power. Not compared to 3d6/round you could be doing otherwise.

Besides, what's all this about "mopping up" hard to reach targets. As soon as the targets realize you're planning to just sit back and let the warlock pick them off, they're going to change plans...right? If they're that far out of reach, they can probably get cover. And a fireball in the right place can make cover totally irrelevent.

And I have yet to see "Energy Substitution" saving the day vs. all strong saves opposition like outsiders etc.. Which sorcerer has more than one type, and since when is "sonic" - the only energy type to which hardly anyone is resistant or immune a viable choice for the v3.5 version of that feat again ?

Energy Substitution is actually pretty sweet if you know what you're going to be fighting. All demons and devils are vulnerable to lightning, for example. Hardly anything other than outsiders have multiple energy resistances, so if one type doesn't work, the other probably will. Most outsiders you face at low levels are probably going to be Summoned anyway, so just dispel them.

Plus, the sorcerer needs to spend 1 feat before even qualifying for that particular solution, and he needs it once for every alternate energy type he intends to use... Now, sorcerer's don't really have too many feats in the first place, at least to my experience.

And please note what I mention above concerning the 6th level warlock's 4 invocations and the incompatibility of certain of the more nifty ones.

So the cleric in your games never goes down, is too busy or temporarily incapacipated because the smart opposition shoots for the healer ?

Say what now? A downed cleric is what potions are for. And keeping the cleric up is why the cleric gets to wear heavy armour, something the warlock can't do...which will put him in a spot of trouble when the smart opposition decides to take out the sniper that's been blasting them.

And yes the warlock can simply buy himself a bunch of scrolls (or even funnier write them himself at level 12+ ), to have all those nifty "special situation" spells handy - clerical (harder to use, but it can be done ) or arcane ? As for "he has to roll for their use".
Yes, he certainly does, but then again he can take "10" on that particular skill, which at level 6 should yield him totals of 19+CHA bonus without touching his dice... usually that is close enough to activate most items (considering that most Warlocks will have as high a CHA as they can, - for the save DC alone ). At 12th level we are of course talking 25 + CHA bonus (and he hasn't even considered taking a Feat boosting this skill yet). He can simply use bardic and druidic items, too, which many parties simply don't have a use for ( lacking both or one of the classes ) but might find useful. And trapped in a remote place, given the necessary materials and the feat, he can simply whip up a scroll of any particular magic one might need to go home - without even having access to the spell or a source for it . Another major boon, in my book at least.

Definitely nice. And expensive. Look, I'm not trying to argue that the warlock sucks. He's pretty nifty. What I'm arguing is that he's not significantly more powerful than any other full class I can pull out of a splatbook. He's good at a few things, and has some important weaknesses.

I guess in that case, I guess you simply miss a lot of the (abusable) possibilities of a cleverly played warlock. The sole thing I don't really see him doing is "shapechanging" and "polymorphing" over the place. And just for the record, which utility spells does a sorcerer, with his already limited spell load usually pack ?

Oh, Dispel Magic, See invisibility, Dimension Door, and Spider Climb, just for starters. Funny how the more useful sorcerer spells found their way into warlock invocations.

Oh and watch the "I guess you simply miss..." That's just insulting.