Warlock/Rogues and ranged touch Sneak Attacks

[Viktyr Gehrig]

The ability to make sneak attacks with ray spells is a rules change I agreed with strongly in 3.0, since it makes sense and adds power to several multiclass combinations that would ordinarily be quite weak-- Rogue/Wizards and Rogue/Sorcerors.

In a Gestalt game, though, it's too easy to accumulate various ranged touch abilities and sneak attack dice at the same time. It's especially bad with the Warlock/Rogue-- it can take the invocation that grants invisibility and then effectively double their Eldritch Blast damage at will.

I'm thinking that in Gestalt games, particularly when allowing the Warlock, that the ability to do Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage with ranged touch attacks must be removed. Are there any other ideas for handling this?

 

[Baronovan]

If you're sociopathic enough to play a gestalt game, you deserve all the crusty-munchkin side-effects that your wanton lust for power incurs.

 

[Ferrix]

The ability to make sneak attacks with ray spells is a rules change I agreed with strongly in 3.0, since it makes sense and adds power to several multiclass combinations that would ordinarily be quite weak-- Rogue/Wizards and Rogue/Sorcerors.

In a Gestalt game, though, it's too easy to accumulate various ranged touch abilities and sneak attack dice at the same time. It's especially bad with the Warlock/Rogue-- it can take the invocation that grants invisibility and then effectively double their Eldritch Blast damage at will.

I'm thinking that in Gestalt games, particularly when allowing the Warlock, that the ability to do Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage with ranged touch attacks must be removed. Are there any other ideas for handling this?

I don't think so, else you are handicapping a particular combination that has a nice synergy while not doing so else where. Additionally, with all of the spells & eldritch blast it's rare to get more than one attack per round, where as it's pretty easy to make a fighter/rogue who dual-wields and can get quite a few more attacks per round and still outpace the eldritch blast or spell sneak attacker. Flanking is usually just as easy to come by as invisibility or hiding, sometimes a lot easier since even if they can see you, you're still hitting with sneak attack damage.

A level 6 fighter-rogue dual-wielding a longsword and a short sword can get up to four attacks in a full-attack, that's up to 12d6 sneak attack damage in a round plus 2d8 + 2d6 weapon damage + Str + etc. The level 6 warlock-rogue will have 3d6 eldritch blast + 3d6 sneak attack, and with a worse BAB bonus (although it'll be a touch attack). The warlock-rogue has a nice trick, the fighter-rogue can be a veritable death machine.

Heck the same warlock-rogue if invisible might be better off getting rapid shot and a shortbow if they're facing off against multiple opponents. 1d6+3d6 SA twice, is actually 2d6 more potential damage than the eldritch blast + sa, albeit without the touch attack, but against a horde of smaller opponents it can be much more useful.

 

[Terath Ninir]

I find Ferrix's case very compelling, actually. Since you can only get one, or at most two, eldritch blasts in a round, the sneak attack damage isn't that impressive, compared to other munchie-crunchie builds.

 

[Shuffle]

And remember that your Eldritch blast will be weaker against SR, and if a spell does no damage, there's no SA

 

[Crothian]

I'd be more worried about someone going Ninj/rogue and stacking those damages.

It will be a good combo Warlock/rogue or Warlock/Ninja. You might want to allow then to do it x/day like equal to half their level so they can just not as often.

 

[Vargo]

I'd be more worried about someone going Ninj/rogue and stacking those damages.

The section on Gestalt specifically disallows stacking similar abilities, such as sneak attack, or +1 caster level.

Now, if you want to get some SERIOUS synergy going, do a druid/monk gestalt, dump all physical stats down to 8, max your wisdom, then spend the rest of your life wildshaped once you hit 5th level.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

If you're sociopathic enough to play a gestalt game, you deserve all the crusty-munchkin side-effects that your wanton lust for power incurs.

As the DM in this case, I fail to see how either sociopathy or wanton lust for power apply. I'm not playing in a Gestalt game, I am running one, and I have no intention of running this combination against my players; I am also blessed with a group that prefers roleplaying to mechanical advantages.

I posted this because it is an issue of potential abuse and should be examined. As far as I can tell, your participation in this thread is little more than taking a cheap shot at me because of a House Rule I happen to enjoy.

Additionally, with all of the spells & eldritch blast it's rare to get more than one attack per round, where as it's pretty easy to make a fighter/rogue who dual-wields and can get quite a few more attacks per round and still outpace the eldritch blast or spell sneak attacker.

You make a good point, as Cyberzombie points out. My biggest objection is the fact that it's far easier for the Warlock/Rogue to take advantage of Sneak Attack than the dual-wielding Fighter/Rogue, as there is a Warlock invocation that makes them invisible and allows them to attack invisibly for the entire duration.

Perhaps simply changing the invocation to match the invisibility spell is a better solution-- they can still make use of their Eldritch Blast sneak attack, but only every other round, unless they find another means of sneak attacking. That would also allow other classes to sneak attack with rays. This would mean probably reassigning it to the Lesser Invocation category instead of Greater Invocation.

 

[FireLance]

Perhaps simply changing the invocation to match the invisibility spell is a better solution-- they can still make use of their Eldritch Blast sneak attack, but only every other round, unless they find another means of sneak attacking. That would also allow other classes to sneak attack with rays. This would mean probably reassigning it to the Lesser Invocation category instead of Greater Invocation.

IIRC, there already is a lesser invocation that mimics invisibility - Walk Unseen.

Removing the Greater invocation verson isn't going to solve your problem if you player is able to get hold of a ring of blinking or just a wand of greater invisibility. With Deceive Item, making a DC 20 Use Magic Device check will be a breeze.

 

[Dracomeander]

There is an even nastier synergy for a combat trog gestalt character once you reach mid-levels. Has anyone ever mentioned a Scout combined with Fighter until qualifying for Dervish? Skirmish ability combined with Dervish Dance is just plain unreasonable. It gets even worse at high level when you add Tempest into the mix.