Warlock, Shadow Walk and Stealth

[Cascade]

Still... it doesn't fix the biggest problem : active perception check in combat takes a standard action, .

but the warlock can't do anything either or he becomes un-stealthed.

ex.
rd 1. Warlock curses target (minor) moves 3 spaces (gains shadow walk and is concealed) - again my rules interpretation is he couldn't do a stealth check on his move as he wasn't concealed/covered at the start of the move (unless he was out of line of sight). He can then attack the target from concealment (no bonus to hit but -2 on his AC).

rd 2. Warlock makes a stealth check as part of a concealed move (he moves 3 to maintain the shadow walk). He is now hidden barring a poor stealth roll with a -5 vs passive percep. He can attack with CA. He is no longer hidden and out of moves but still has concealment and can be targeted.

this way he can choose to be targetable and get CA or not be targetable but no CA unless he skips turns.

it seems to work in my mind and within the rules and balances it without a lot of perception rolls.

 

[buzz]

My gut reaction is this. The move has to happen first in order for the Shadow Walk to take effect. Remember, it's not that the Shadow Walk takes effect once the PC moves three squares. The ability happens "if you move at least 3 squares away from where you started your turn" (p.131). Emphasis on the "if." Ergo, the move itself is not made with any concealment from the Shadow Walk, ergo there's no Stealth check that can be made as part of that action. Shadow Walk is the result of the 3+ square move; it does not happen during.

So, the attack-move-Stealth combo can't work. However, the warlock could move and then try an attack with a Stealth check, since the move triggers the Shadow Walk before the attack is attempted. Granted, even with a successful Stealth check, the attack would mean the warlock is no longer hidden, but at least they'd get Combat Advantage for that attack.

 

[Siran Dunmorgan]

but the warlock can't do anything either or he becomes un-stealthed.

ex.
rd 1. Warlock curses target (minor) moves 3 spaces (gains shadow walk and is concealed) - again my rules interpretation is he couldn't do a stealth check on his move as he wasn't concealed/covered at the start of the move (unless he was out of line of sight). He can then attack the target from concealment (no bonus to hit but -2 on his AC).

rd 2. Warlock makes a stealth check as part of a concealed move (he moves 3 to maintain the shadow walk). He is now hidden barring a poor stealth roll with a -5 vs passive percep. He can attack with CA. He is no longer hidden and out of moves but still has concealment and can be targeted.

this way he can choose to be targetable and get CA or not be targetable but no CA unless he skips turns.

it seems to work in my mind and within the rules and balances it without a lot of perception rolls.

On the other hand, the warlock who wishes to remain unseen doesn't have to do things in the order you specify: characters receive a move, a standard action, and a minor action on their turns, yes, but may take them in any order. Thus:

At the start of round 1, let us say, the warlock has neither concealment nor stealth. She then takes her standard action, and attacks. After attacking, she takes her move action, and moves at least three spaces. This grants her concealment. Her first turn ends.

At the beginning of her second turn, the warlock has concealment. She takes her standard action, and attacks. Then, she moves stealthily, another three or four spaces. Note that her entire move is in concealment: even under your interpretation of the rules, this allows her to apply stealth. When her turn ends, she is still in concealment and in stealth.

Subsequent rounds are similar to the second round: as long as she is moving at least three spaces in her move action, she remains concealed, and, as long as she attacks and then moves, she remains stealthed.

—Siran Dunmorgan

 

[Zzyzxz]

Ennemies aren't making perception check. They use their passive perception score. They have to use a standard (not a minor, as been said) action to make an active perception check (p.186).

So this is really becoming a problem.
Warlock attacks, move at least 3 squares, make stealth check.
Monsters turn : those who want to attack the warlock have to succed an active perception check if passive wasn't enought... but it takes a standard action, so if your passive perception score isn't enought, you just CAN'T attack the warlock.

This is not quite correct. When you are trying to target a creature that you can't see you only need a minor action to make an active Perception check, but you have to beat the stealth roll by at least 10 to pinpoint your foe when making this quick check. See p. 281: "On your turn, you can make an active Perception check as a minor action, comparing the result to the concealed creature’s last Stealth check. If you win, you know the direction to the creature’s location, or its exact location if you beat it by 10 or more."

The problem here is that if your passive perception (your skill modifier +10) doesn't beat their stealth, then you won't be able to beat their stealth by 10 no matter what you roll (because even if you roll a 20, once you subtract 10 it is equal to your passive score). The upside is that the minor action can still give you enough hints to make an educated guess as to what square your target is in. If you guess correctly, it is only at -5 to hit (for total concealment).

If you took a standard action instead of a minor action the "beat by 10" requirement wouldn't apply, allowing you to pinpoint the square by simply beating the stealth check (an allowing you to tell your allies which square to attack).

 

[Tsuul]

..if the player doesn't have it prior/during the 3+ square moves, he doesn't gain concealment until the end of his move from the Warlock feat. Therefore, I feel, he couldn't stealth during that move. ...

What are the limits? Can a rogue move 1 step toward cover/concealment and hide? 2 steps?
What if the warlock has 7(elf) movement and decides on square 3 to hide (he has 4 left to go). What about a hypothetical 100 movement speed?

Standard action attack + move action movement(gain Shadow Walk) + minor action hide sounds viable as long as there is no cursing to be done.

 

[Silverwave]

You could, as mentioned, take your actions in any orders.
But it's even better than what mentioned.

You could : attack, then move at lest 3 squares, then hide with a minor action (if we interprete (is that even a word?) the Cascade's way, which I now support completly, or as part of the move action if we support the other way of interpretting the rules.

Either way, that mean you can, each turn, attack, move and hide (stealth).

EDIT :
Zzyzxz.

It's not exactly that way. On the creature's end of turn, the creature make a stealth against your passive perception. If your passive perception beats the stealth check, you know the direction of the creature. If your passive perception beats the stealth by 10 or more, you know exactly wich square he's in.

On your turn, you could make an active perception against it's stealth with the same thing, you beat it, know the direction, beat 10 or more, know wich square. Still, if you can't beat it by 10 or more with your passive skill, you just can't do it with an active one.

But what makes me dizzy is that on this side bar, they say the active perception check is a minor action, and on p.188 under stealth, it says it needs a standard action... great...

 

[buzz]

Stealth is used as part of another action. I don't know if a PC can actually "hide as a minor action." "Hiding" in itself is not an action. Stealth assumes you are trying to hide something you are doing.

Granted, it would seem reasonable to want to use Stealth while you stay put and do nothing...

 

[firesnakearies]

The enemies who want to attack this warlock just need to ready an action to shoot/charge him whenever he pops out of Stealth.

 

[clearstream]

The enemies who want to attack this warlock just need to ready an action to shoot/charge him whenever he pops out of Stealth.

Readied actions occur as an immediate reaction: meaning you get in your whole action first. They're very easily thwarted.

Well, depending on how you run Stealth, that is.

-vk

 

[clearstream]

Stealth is used as part of another action. I don't know if a PC can actually "hide as a minor action." "Hiding" in itself is not an action. Stealth assumes you are trying to hide something you are doing.

Granted, it would seem reasonable to want to use Stealth while you stay put and do nothing...

You want brinksmanship, try hiding off blowing your nose ten times a turn, and not in your turn.

Can I roll a high number with that many rolls? Why, I believe I can.

-vk