Warlock spell poll.

[mellored]

Just because that sentence is symmetrical, it doesn't make it not nonsense.

Each class has a power budget. And if warlocks have high level spell slots, they can't have as many invocations.

Mystic Arcanum as is, allows you to chose where to put your power. You get to chose if you want fireball or to sit in camp casting Eldritch Blast though your paladin ally.

If you make mystic arcanum mandatory, then something else goes.

Now. I think they are currently too weak, but balance is a different thread.

 

[Charlaquin]

Each class has a power budget. And if warlocks have high level spell slots, they can't have as many invocations.

They only gave one additional Invocation. Mystic Arcanum taxes you five if you want to hit your spell levels at the appropriate times.

Mystic Arcanum as is, allows you to chose where to put your power. You get to chose if you want fireball or to sit in camp casting Eldritch Blast though your paladin ally.

If you make mystic arcanum mandatory, then something else goes.

I’m fine with Mystic Arcanum as an Invocation, I think that was a cool change. Just not with those Invocations being required to keep up with spell level progression.

 

[mellored]

They only gave one additional Invocation. Mystic Arcanum taxes you five if you want to hit your spell levels at the appropriate times.

Or just retrain it on level up. Then you always have a max level spell.

Though I do agree warlock took more nerfs than buffs, but that's another thread.

 

[Tessarael]

I like the A5E implementation of Warlocks using spell points. I'd actually prefer to see all spellcasters use a similar system with recovery on a short rest, and hence be compatible with each other. IMHO, all classes should have a core set of powers that recharge on a short rest, with some more powerful ones that only recover on a long rest.

And I strongly dislike the proposed Warlock having half-level casting progression. That's just a disaster with insufficient compensation for the substantial weakening to the class. The A5E Warlock is just so much better designed that this mess.

So I voted for full caster. I'm okayish with the existing 5E D&D Warlock with spell slots and greatly prefer the A5E Warlock with spell points that effectively have them be a full caster with up to 5th level spells, then Mystic Arcanums for 6th to 9th level slots works fine - it is effectively a full caster and fairly well balanced vs. the other full spellcasters.

 

[Remathilis]

I've heard that Pact Magic is a level or two behind full caster using spell points as a conversion system. I intended to see if that was true.

Methodology: I took the number of spells a warlock can cast per day and converted them to spell points using the Variant rule in the DM. So, if a warlock gets two 3rd level spell slots, I took the cost of a third level spell (5) and doubled it. I then assumed a warlock would refresh all their spell slots on a short rest and did one short rest (doubling) and two short rests (tripling). I compared that then to what a half-caster would get as far as SP again using the DMG.
I did not account for Mystic Arcanum, the free Patron spell, or any invocations. This is pure Pact Mage to half-caster.

Results

Analysis:
Pact Magic without any rest is awful. It's almost worse than an EB/AT 1/3 caster.
Pact Magic with one rest is almost equal to half caster. Admittedly, it maintains a solid lead through most of the progression (finally falling behind only at 15th level) but the half-caster pulls within a point or so several times.
Pact Magic with two rests keeps pace with a full caster for the first ten levels, but after that falls bending hard. Topping out at the equivalent of a 13th level caster. Again, MA would make up a lot of slack on this (effectively emulating 43 additional points worth of high-level spells right around the same time a full caster gets them) but the limited nature of MA doesn't quite equal the full caster's range of high-level magic.

So, you could look at it like the warlock is effectively a third-caster, a half-caster, or not-quite a full caster, depending on the number of times you rest. But again, that doesn't quite tell the whole story. Even if a 10th level warlock has 28 spell points to play with after a rest, they are still tied up in only four uses. He can't burn only three points to cast Misty step, he must burn seven. So even as his point amount increases, the amount he must spend to do anything also rises. He has the power budget of other casters with not the versatility.

It appears WotC opted for the equivalent of a warlock +1 rest to equal a half-caster. It makes sense to pick one rest as two is not always possible (best case scenario) while no rests are too stingy. It also makes sense due to the class's slots topping out at 5th (with higher being handled by MA).

Final Thought: It's still wild to think that a warlock under 10th level is roughly the equivalent of an Arcane Trickster if he doesn't get a rest, a Ranger if he gets one rest, or a Bard if he gets two rests. It shows the wild disparity in power all based on if you can get your contracted breaks or not!

I think it also shows why people have such wildly different experiences with the class. If you were in a game with frequent short breaks, the warlock felt on par with the other main casters. If you were in a game with few or no short rests, you were playing with one hand tied behind your back.

 

[Neonchameleon]

They only gave one additional Invocation. Mystic Arcanum taxes you five if you want to hit your spell levels at the appropriate times.

Two and a half. They hid one and a half in the Pact Boon, with the one being the upgrade at level 5. The Blade gets Thirsting Blade as the upgrade plus does the decent thing of giving you the right stat as well as making thrown weapons returning , the Tome gets Agonizing Blast as the upgrade and contains elements of Book of Ancient Secrets (you can literally get any first level rituals, changing them with an hour's notice). The Chain changes are ... complex ... but do include Voice of the Chain Master as the upgrade .

 

[Neonchameleon]

Lots of options out there, but let's try and get a count.

Let's not get into balance issues at the moment. The exact number of slots <-> invocations can be adjusted, just assume it's a fair trade for now.

Also, here is a quote from the 3e warlock.

A warlock does not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do. Instead, he possesses a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations that require him to focus the wild energy that suffuses his soul. A warlock can use any invocation he knows at will.

The poll's confusing to me. Is the classic 4e Warlock either:

• A full caster with funky slots because they have the same spell level as wizards (despite invocations not mentioned)
• A half-caster with invocations because they really don't have the slots of wizards?

Because the warlock should absolutely not have no invocations. But I'm never going to support the playtest half-caster pick.

 

[mellored]

The poll's confusing to me. Is the classic 4e Warlock either:

• A full caster with funky slots because they have the same spell level as wizards (despite invocations not mentioned)
• A half-caster with invocations because they really don't have the slots of wizards?

Because the warlock should absolutely not have no invocations. But I'm never going to support the playtest half-caster pick.

Hmmm...
I would say everyone in 4e was a full Vancian caster.
You memorized a single spell in each slot. And could only cast it once.

But this is in comparison to other 5e classes.

Sorcerer (who has some metamagic) , artificer, or invocations only?

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think it also shows why people have such wildly different experiences with the class. If you were in a game with frequent short breaks, the warlock felt on par with the other main casters. If you were in a game with few or no short rests, you were playing with one hand tied behind your back.

That matches my experience; the warlock is fine if you consistently average one short rest per day and strong if two. I'm used to having breaks - for example getting to the dungeon is a challenge then have lunch before entering it for a short dungeon. Not to five minute adventuring days.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Hmmm...
I would say everyone in 4e was a full Vancian caster.
You memorized a single spell in each slot. And could only cast it once.

But this is in comparison to other 5e classes.

Sorcerer (who has some metamagic) , artificer, or invocations only?

Sorry, I meant the classic 5e Warlock. Just with pact magic having a tweaked recharge.

Because that doesn't seem to be an option you've presented.

 

[mellored]

Sorry, I meant the classic 5e Warlock. Just with pact magic having a tweaked recharge.

Because that doesn't seem to be an option you've presented.

I guess 2/3 spell caster?

If you take a sorcerer, and trade your lower level slots to higher level, you end up with about the same amount that the warlock had.

 

[Parmandur]

They only gave one additional Invocation. Mystic Arcanum taxes you five if you want to hit your spell levels at the appropriate times.

I’m fine with Mystic Arcanum as an Invocation, I think that was a cool change. Just not with those Invocations being required to keep up with spell level progression.

Actually, I noticed on parsing the new abilities that there were other places with hidden Spell Slots that with the
9th Invocation sens to make up the power budget.

At Level 11 where Mystic Arcanum used to be, this Warlock gets a Spell that can be cast once a day, essentially a free slot, with Contact Other Plane.

The Subclass bonus prepares Apells gives a free slot, which scales.

Hex Mastery at 18th turns the signature Spell Slot using Spell into a Cantrip, which is big.

Making Myatic Arcanum an Imvocztion that can be repeated 7 times means that someone who wants a full caster Warlock is actually running ahead of the current Warlock. It's not an Invocation tax, really, since a Warlock who avoided Mystic Arcanum entirely gets lots of cool toys that peobavly fit some concept better.

 

[Parmandur]

It also strikes me that OG Mystic Arcanum only kicked in at Level 11...when most campaigns start winding down.

 

[Gorck]

It also strikes me that OG Mystic Arcanum only kicked in at Level 11...when most campaigns start winding down.

Yes, level 11 is when full casters get 6th level spells

 

[Tessarael]

[..] Pact Magic without any rest is awful. It's almost worse than an EB/AT 1/3 caster.
Pact Magic with one rest is almost equal to half caster. Admittedly, it maintains a solid lead through most of the progression (finally falling behind only at 15th level) but the half-caster pulls within a point or so several times.
Pact Magic with two rests keeps pace with a full caster for the first ten levels, but after that falls bending hard. Topping out at the equivalent of a 13th level caster. Again, MA would make up a lot of slack on this (effectively emulating 43 additional points worth of high-level spells right around the same time a full caster gets them) but the limited nature of MA doesn't quite equal the full caster's range of high-level magic.
[..]
I think it also shows why people have such wildly different experiences with the class. If you were in a game with frequent short breaks, the warlock felt on par with the other main casters. If you were in a game with few or no short rests, you were playing with one hand tied behind your back.

One thing my DM does, which I really appreciate, is permit PCs to take a quick (15 minute) short rest when they need it between battles. This is done on a per character basis - others can choose not to take their short rest then. With a maximum of two short rests per long rest. A number of classes do really depend on getting that short rest every couple of encounters to recharge powers, otherwise short rest recharge vs. long rest recharge powers are quite unbalanced and you need to hold on to use of them to fight the big evil which means you don't use your (signature short rest rechargeable) power as often as you could/should because you are resource scarce (due to mostly being limited to long rest and occasional short rest if that is the case).

 

[Neonchameleon]

Actually, I noticed on parsing the new abilities that there were other places with hidden Spell Slots that with the
9th Invocation sens to make up the power budget.

At Level 11 where Mystic Arcanum used to be, this Warlock gets a Spell that can be cast once a day, essentially a free slot, with Contact Other Plane.

Warlocks used to get an extra pact magic slot. It was big.

Hex Mastery at 18th turns the signature Spell Slot using Spell into a Cantrip, which is big.

As a warlock player who never used Hex no it isn't. On the one hand hex literally lasted 24 hours when cast by a warlock. On the other Hex was and remains a concentration spell. On the gripping hand Hex gets cast as a level 1 spell out of that, and hex now only procs 1/turn rather than 1/hit. It makes up for it by higher damage when it procs if you cast it at higher level. Whoever thought that ability up didn't work with the person who changed Hex.

Making Myatic Arcanum an Imvocztion that can be repeated 7 times means that someone who wants a full caster Warlock is actually running ahead of the current Warlock.

You've spent seven out of nine invocations on being a wannabe wizard or bard. Or all your non-second level invocations and literally every single non-shared class feature other than Contact Patron and Hex Master you got after level 3. And you're at best a wannabe wizard with Eldritch Blast or a blade. (Remember that neither version of Mystic Arcanum is a match for "real" 6th-9th level spells because you can't upcast into them and can't change them)

It's not an Invocation tax, really, since a Warlock who avoided Mystic Arcanum entirely gets lots of cool toys that peobavly fit some concept better.

They really don't get a lot of toys compared to the current version. It is a truly savage set of nerfs to high level warlocks.

 

[Ath-kethin]

The only changes I ever wanted to the 5e Warlock was allowing them to use martial weapons by default - I truly don't understand why that wasn't an option - and giving them Ritual Casting for free. Add the Rital tag to Magic Circle, because that's an ability I really think Warlocks should have, and that's it for my adjustments.

So I'm very much in the "keep it the same but for these tiny changes or just keep it the same because I can make the changes myself" category.

 

[Parmandur]

As a warlock player who never used Hex no it isn't. On the one hand hex literally lasted 24 hours when cast by a warlock. On the other Hex was and remains a concentration spell. On the gripping hand Hex gets cast as a level 1 spell out of that, and hex now only procs 1/turn rather than 1/hit. It makes up for it by higher damage when it procs if you cast it at higher level. Whoever thought that ability up didn't work with the person who changed Hex.

I do think Hex master lacks some pizzazz for a end cap feature. However, as van already be seen from existing Invocations, turning a Level 1 Dpell into a cantrip is at the same power budget Level as a Mystic Arcanum Spell Slot.

You've spent seven out of nine invocations on being a wannabe wizard or bard. Or all your non-second level invocations and literally every single non-shared class feature other than Contact Patron and Hex Master you got after level 3. And you're at best a wannabe wizard with Eldritch Blast or a blade. (Remember that neither version of Mystic Arcanum is a match for "real" 6th-9th level spells because you can't upcast into them and can't change them)

Well, this Warlock is, at heart, a half-caster who has the option to lean either way. Which the Pact magic version also does, this just makes the stakes more clear.

They really don't get a lot of toys compared to the current version. It is a truly savage set of nerfs to high level warlocks.

Change, yes, nerf, questionable.

 

[mellored]

and giving them Ritual Casting for free.

Everyone gets ritual casting for free.

 

[Yaarel]

I’m pretty good with the half caster plus mystic arcanum for higher slots. Wasn’t into exploiting the short rest slot recovery. Doesn’t feel like any sort of nerf when viewed from a daily, long rest perspective.

This is my view, and given the survey options, I consider this a "fullcaster".

A fullcaster gets the approprate slot level at the class level, especially slot 9 at level 17.

So a halfcaster schedule but with Invocations to get the appropriate slot level, is still a fullcaster.