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Warlock vs. Incorporeals

Zaruthustran

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Does a solo warlock have any way to affect Incorporeal creatures? The description of the Eldritch Blast is "baleful magical energy"; is that the same as a force effect? Or do blasts go right through?

Invocations seem to offer no help. There is no "sudden transdimensional" feat, and that would be good for only 3 shots anyway.

So is the Warlock toast when facing Incorporeals? In other words: is a wand of magic missiles and a high UMD just necessary for survival vs. ghostly things?
 

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Zaruthustran said:
So is the Warlock toast when facing Incorporeals? In other words: is a wand of magic missiles and a high UMD just necessary for survival vs. ghostly things?
Eldritch Blasts are not force effects, so they do not automatically hit incorporeal creatures. However, they don't automatically miss, either - as a spell-like effect, they have a 50% chance to deal damage to an incorporeal creature. That leaves warlocks no worse off than any combatant armed with a magic weapon.
 

MarkB said:
That leaves warlocks no worse off than any combatant armed with a magic weapon.

Except for the fact that, even when the Warlock knows ahead of time that he'll be facing incorporeal opponents, he has no way to prepare for them. Warriors can get Ghost Touch weapons. Other casters can get a lot of Magic Missles ready. Warlock seems to be out of luck.

I never noticed this limitation of the Warlock before. It's an interesting weakness. I suppose this is balaced by the fact that a normal caster has a 50% chance of wasting a spell completely, where if the Warlock's blast fails, he can just use another one the next round.
 

Deset Gled said:
Except for the fact that, even when the Warlock knows ahead of time that he'll be facing incorporeal opponents, he has no way to prepare for them. Warriors can get Ghost Touch weapons. Other casters can get a lot of Magic Missles ready. Warlock seems to be out of luck.

I never noticed this limitation of the Warlock before. It's an interesting weakness. I suppose this is balaced by the fact that a normal caster has a 50% chance of wasting a spell completely, where if the Warlock's blast fails, he can just use another one the next round.
The solution was mentioned by the OP - just buy a wand of magic missiles, likely at a lower cost than the warriors will spend on their Ghost Touch weapons. With their Deceive Item ability, Warlocks have as much versatility against special circumstances as any other class.
 

Thanks for the replies. MarkB, you seem an experienced Warlock guy. I'm totally new to the class. What do you recommend in terms of ability weighting, skills, feats, and invocations?
 

Zaruthustran said:
Thanks for the replies. MarkB, you seem an experienced Warlock guy. I'm totally new to the class. What do you recommend in terms of ability weighting, skills, feats, and invocations?
The main thing to keep in mind is that this is not really a spellcasting class - in practice, it's an archer with some neat extra abilities. A good route is to specialise in being useful in that role - take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot early, so that you can fire your eldritch blasts into melee. If that's the build you're going for, make DEX your primary ability, closely followed by CHA and CON about equal in second place. Wisdom is about the only thing you won't particularly want.

The warlock faces a dilemma where skills are concerned - he has a nice list of class skills, but only minimal points to spend, and one of his primary class features - Deceive Item - relies upon him maxing out one specific skill: Use Magic Device. Whichever build you go for and regardless of your total skill points, you should definitely max out UMD, and Concentration is a close second at low levels, since all your invocations - including Eldritch Blast - provoke AoOs. After that, Spellcraft complements your innate Detect Magic ability, allowing you to identify the auras you find. If you've still got points left over after that, you could consider the Knowledges or social skills.

One thing to note is that the eldritch blast has been errata'd to have an effective spell level of 1st, unless you apply an invocation to it, in which case the level is that of the highest invocation you apply. The result of this is that you can take the metamagic spell-like ability feats from the Monster Manual and Complete Arcane and apply them to your eldritch blast. At 6th level, you can take either Maximise or Empower (Maximise gives you more bang for your buck), and by 12th you can take Quicken.

You should consider starting to pick up item creation feats as early as 9th level. Until you gain the ability which lets you emulate item prerequisites (10th or 11th, I think) you can use scrolls or wands to provide prerequisites - and once you do have the ability, you become a highly versatile magic item crafter, limited only by the item creation feats you know,

I could give advice about invocations, but to a large extent, that depends on which direction you'll be taking the character.
 

That's more good info. What I had in mind was inspired by Randall Flagg from The Stand. A charming guy (good Cha, social skills) who is thoroughly evil, but sees the value in friends/minions and is not invincible (and is aware of his own fallibility/reliance on a vague external higher power). I don't want to make Randall himself, but that was the inspiration.

For Invocations, my wishlist is (LEAST) Beguiling Influence, Baleful Utterance, Dark Ones Own Luck, See the Unseen, (LESSER) Charm, Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, Voracious Dispelling, (GREATER) Wall of Perilous Flame.

Thing is, it's important to get those blast essences and shapes in order to power through Minor Globes and to be effective in combat. So I was thinking (LEAST) Frightful Blast, Eldritch Spear, (LESSER) Beshadowed Blast, Eldritch Chain, (GREATER) Repelling Blast, Vitriolic Blast, Eldritch Cone (DARK) Utterdark Blast.

Way too many invocations to fit into one character. We're starting at level 5, so that's 3 Least invocations. Right now I'm thinking Baleful Utterance, Frightful Blast, and Beguiling Influence.

For skills (28 point buy, Str 10 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 16 with level bump) I was thinking of maxing UMD, Intimidation, and Concentration, 5 ranks in Bluff, 7 in Spellcraft, and a smattering of all three Knowledges.

For feats, well, that's the thing. I figure with Frightful Blast, Beguiling Influence, and maxed Intimidate I should take a feat that lets me add another Fear effect to those Shaken by the blast (forcing them to flee). Something like Kiai Shout or even Intimidating Strike (though I don't have the prereqs for that). Any ideas for more Fear-based feats?

Other feat ideas: Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast), PBS, Extra Invocation, Sudden Maximize. Those last two can only be taken at 6th-level or later, so I'd probably go with Extra Invocation (Dark One's Own Luck or Eldritch Spear).

What do you think?
 

Zaruthustran said:
For Invocations, my wishlist is (LEAST) Beguiling Influence, Baleful Utterance, Dark Ones Own Luck, See the Unseen, (LESSER) Charm, Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, Voracious Dispelling, (GREATER) Wall of Perilous Flame.
Bear in mind that you can swap out lower-level invocations when you get new ones - so if you want some of that mobility early, take Spiderwalk until you can swap it out for Fell Flight later.

Baleful Utterance is incredibly useful, to the point where it's almost abusive. It's surprising just how many mundane items an adventurer comes across that would make his life easier if they were to conveniently fall apart.

Flee the Scene is great for both mobility and battlefield control - being able to run (or fly) in and pull your companion(s) out of harm's way, leaving behind an illusory target, is very handy.

Wall of Perilous Flame is good, but also consider Chilling Tentacles - it's devastating for battlefield control, and as a bonus it deals damage too.

Thing is, it's important to get those blast essences and shapes in order to power through Minor Globes and to be effective in combat. So I was thinking (LEAST) Frightful Blast, Eldritch Spear, (LESSER) Beshadowed Blast, Eldritch Chain, (GREATER) Repelling Blast, Vitriolic Blast, Eldritch Cone (DARK) Utterdark Blast.
Personally, I've never been attracted by most of the essence blasts. Their effects just aren't radical enough to make it worth spending the invocation - with the exception of Vitriolic Blasts, obviously, to get you past SR.

My first warlock took Eldritch Spear at 4th level, and got no use out of it at all for two levels. Granted, we were doing a lot of dungeoneering, but the fact is that even on open ground, it's not all that common to know you're going to go ahead and fight someone before they get within shouting distance. If you're going to be a highly mobile, flying warlock, chances are you'll be able to get within normal blast range and still stay fairly safe.

Eldritch Chain and Eldritch Cone, however, are well worth it - the Chain because it's the closest you'll get to having iterative attacks, and the Cone for those occasions when the enemy thinks a tight formation is a good idea.

Way too many invocations to fit into one character. We're starting at level 5, so that's 3 Least invocations. Right now I'm thinking Baleful Utterance, Frightful Blast, and Beguiling Influence.
Reasonable choice, though I will point out that it's hard to go wrong with See the Unseen. Even for a character who already has darkvision, constant-effect See Invisibility is very useful. Entropic Ward is also nice.

For skills (28 point buy, Str 10 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 16 with level bump) I was thinking of maxing UMD, Intimidation, and Concentration, 5 ranks in Bluff, 7 in Spellcraft, and a smattering of all three Knowledges.
That's a well-balanced set of choices, and you've covered all the essentials.

For feats, well, that's the thing. I figure with Frightful Blast, Beguiling Influence, and maxed Intimidate I should take a feat that lets me add another Fear effect to those Shaken by the blast (forcing them to flee). Something like Kiai Shout or even Intimidating Strike (though I don't have the prereqs for that). Any ideas for more Fear-based feats?
Intimidating Strike would be a good feat for a melee-specialised member of your party to take - if they hit an opponent first to get them Shaken, you can follow up to Frighten them. Other than that, you could use wands of cause fear as a follow-up to your blasts.

Other feat ideas: Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast)
Only worth it if you're going to specialise in eldritch essence invocations, and cause saving throws against most of your blasts.

If you're going to follow up with Precise Shot to let you fire into melee (and consider Improved Precise Shot at 15th level so that you can ignore cover and concealment), then Point Blank Shot is worth it. If not, a situational +1 to hit and damage is of debatable worth compared to other feat choices.

Extra Invocation
Definitely worth it, but only at later levels. I wouldn't spend a feat to gain anything lower than a Lesser invocation.

Sudden Maximize.
Most definitely worth it. You only get to maximise three blasts per day, but when you really want that extra damage, it's well worth it.

What do you think?
Looks like you've got a good character concept there.
 

Zaruthustran said:
In other words: is a wand of magic missiles and a high UMD just necessary for survival vs. ghostly things?

I will note that once you reach 4th level the "high UMD" you require is only +10 to guarantee using the wand. At that level Warlocks can "take 10" on UMD, and using a wand only requires a 20. If you max out UMD you get a +7, so only need a +3 from Charisma and possibly feats.
 

Good points. If Precise Shot is not in the future, then PBS is less useful than Weapon Focus: Rays (or WF: EB--not sure which is applicable).

Also good news: the UMD needed for wands. After getting into auto-success range I can ditch UMD and bone up on knowledges and social skills.

We'll mostly be indoors or dungeons, so on further review the Spear may not be worthwhile. If it were a seafaring or desert campaign...

So:

1 AF: Eldritch Blast (the -2 penalties from Frightened are pretty compelling), WF: Rays
3 Improved Init (never hurts)
6 Sudden Maximize
9 ?
 

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