Warlord Homebrew Collaboration (+) (Create a 5e Warlord)

[Fenris-77]

I agree, just making sure we're on the same page.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I agree, just making sure we're on the same page.

Okay I’ll allow time for others to chime in, and if no one objects I’ll finalize it later today.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I agree, just making sure we're on the same page.

Oh, also, I am imagining that the marshal has the boost as well. Important to make that clear.
I think the battlefront (maybe presence? I really don’t like battlefront) is always on as long as the marshal is conscious.

 

[Tony Vargas]

That failing is even more non sequitur than whether a 4e Warlord had 2 attacks don't you think?

No one just "had two attacks" in 4e or 3e. But, in the Marshal's native 3e everyone with the BAB for it got iterative attacks, the distinction was BAB progression, full, 3/4, or 1/2.

The only 3/4 BAB class to get Extra Attack in 5e is the Monk - and, that's the template we're using.

So not a total non-sequitor.

Likewise, neither the Marshal nor the Monk heal others, nor is the Monk at all a support class (it's generally been a striker or "5th wheel") and, given the choice to build a 5e Marshal using the Monk as template - both made before the thread went public - it just didn't seem like healing could be too important a priority.

Okay, how about:

Battlefront: 15 ft, within which the warlord can grant a 1d4 bonus or penalty to up to proficiency bonus creatures that can see/hear on initiative.

Assuming that, as the Marshal levels, it gets more options of where it can apply that bonus each round, sure.
I think it'd be preferable to let the player choose what it gives a bonus to, at 1st. An initiative bonus is significant, but it might fell like "doing nothing" the rest of the encounter.

Martial Prowess: Bonus Action when attack action give ally +d6 damage on next hit.

I assume this is Ki-point powered? Or, no, this is 'Marshal Arts, right.

It might make more sense, if you're going to give the 5e version of the Marshal something more active than the an Aura, to make the active power an Action, that includes a Bonus Action Attack?

OK, clearly not for at-will Marshal Arts, but for the Ki Point equivalents, it might make sense.

I don’t actually think the battlefront needs to require concentration, and in fact very much think it shouldn’t.

Pecedent exists in 5e for Concentration on an at-will ability: most relevantly, in this case, the +1d4 Guidance cantrip.
It'd also mean that, if the DM kicked off an ambush with a surprise attack to the Marshal, they could negate the initiative bonus.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

No one just "had two attacks" in 4e or 3e. But, in the Marshal's native 3e everyone with the BAB for it got iterative attacks, the distinction was BAB progression, full, 3/4, or 1/2.

The only 3/4 BAB class to get Extra Attack in 5e is the Monk - and, that's the template we're using.

So not a total non-sequitor.

Likewise, neither the Marshal nor the Monk heal others, nor is the Monk at all a support class (it's generally been a striker or "5th wheel") and, given the choice to build a 5e Marshal using the Monk as template - both made before the thread went public - it just didn't seem like healing could be too important a priority.

Assuming that, as the Marshal levels, it gets more options of where it can apply that bonus each round, sure.
I think it'd be preferable to let the player choose what it gives a bonus to, at 1st. An initiative bonus is significant, but it might fell like "doing nothing" the rest of the encounter.

I assume this is Ki-point powered? Or, no, this is 'Marshal Arts, right.

It might make more sense, if you're going to give the 5e version of the Marshal something more active than the an Aura, to make the active power an Action, that includes a Bonus Action Attack?

OK, clearly not for at-will Marshal Arts, but for the Ki Point equivalents, it might make sense.

Pecedent exists in 5e for Concentration on an at-will ability: most relevantly, in this case, the +1d4 Guidance cantrip.
It'd also mean that, if the DM kicked off an ambush with a surprise attack to the Marshal, they could negate the initiative bonus.

I’d rather say “this bonus cannot be applied if you’re surprised”, than make it concentration. The presence/battlefront should always be on, and be built on, rather than mutually exclusive with, other marshal abilities.

and again, respectfully, we are not recreating a 3.5 class. We are borrowing a name to make a DnD 5th Edition leader-themed support class. It doesn’t matter if the marshal in 3.5 had healing or traded out auras round to round.

One of their (gambit? I hope we can come to something better for the points, but I’ll take gambit over xyz points any day) options will be some manner of healing.

The +d6 damage is at-will, because it is the bread and butter active ability of the marshal. Like you said, it’s martial arts. You can spend gambit (morale just flows better in such a statement) to increase it to granting an attack with a +d6 bonus to damage, but even when you’re totally tapped, you can always add a little damage to someone’s turn.

 

[Garthanos]

Likewise, neither the Marshal nor the Monk heal others, nor is the Monk at all a support class (it's generally been a striker or "5th wheel") and, given the choice to build a 5e Marshal using the Monk as template - both made before the thread went public - it just didn't seem like healing could be too important a priority.

That is the design challenge in this thread I suppose how to integrate that aspect of the warlord. Other things seem less of a problem.

 

[Bawylie]

Okay I’ll allow time for others to chime in, and if no one objects I’ll finalize it later today.

Doesn’t really matter if it’s called Battlefront or not, at this stage of design. By setting an operative space and imposing conditions (whatever they are - certainly doesn’t have to be concentration), you have a framework within which you can judge potency. You can try some crazy idea in design that’s plainly OP with the rationale that “it’s just within 15ft” and then test it and scale it until it works AND feels right.

Having hard limits is permission to think of gonzo things within those limits. Boundaries enable creativity.

So it’s not just “inside here, they get an initiative bonus.” It’s, conceptually, “gambits (or whatever they are) can only work inside here.” Which means the gambits can be better than at-will minor boosts. And that re-positioning gambits, or opportunities to operate within the Battlefront, also become valuable to the Marshal and their allies.

What if the Battlefront was considered difficult terrain to enemies but doubled move speeds for allies within it? That seems powerful - but it’s just within 15 feet.

What if allies in the Battlefront could use the Marshall’s AC or their own (whichever was greater)?

Anyway - I’m not saying you’ve gotta have these or the class will suck. Im just spitballing Marshall-y stuff within a framework.

If I’m advocating anything, it’s that I’d like to see a distinction for the Marshall. Something that isn’t warmed-over Ki or Bardic inspiration. I like the gambit idea. I like the support framework. You folks have some really cool ideas going.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I’d rather say “this bonus cannot be applied if you’re surprised”, than make it concentration. The presence/battlefront should always be on, and be built on, rather than mutually exclusive with, other marshal abilities.

and again, respectfully, we are not recreating a 3.5 class. We are borrowing a name to make a DnD 5th Edition leader-themed support class. It doesn’t matter if the marshal in 3.5 had healing or traded out auras round to round.

I mean, it's your (and Lowkey's) thread, so of course, you know what your intent is.

I may be unclear on a few things, though. Like why the title and some text in the first post still say "Warlord?" Clearly, the decision to switch to Marshal was made before it was moved here, and before any consensus was sought. Likewise, the choice of Monk as template.
So I'm trying to contribute & stay positive on the basis of a Monk-based 5e version of the Marshal.

If the intent is more generic than that, I'd've expected the choice of template and concept to have waited for a consensus.

One of their (gambit? I hope we can come to something better for the points, but I’ll take gambit over xyz points any day) options will be some manner of healing.

Ultimately, in any game, names are just jargon labels, they could be changed at any time, but if we want to follow the 5e "concept first" philosophy, we do need a clear idea of that before getting started.

"Aura," in the context of the Marshal, was obviously just a label, so I won't be sad to see it go.
Ki Points, OTOH, are a fine combination of the two, Ki describes the concept, Points the mechanic.

It might be a good idea to summarize the concepts we're shooting for, I guess.

The +d6 damage is at-will, because it is the bread and butter active ability of the marshal. Like you said, it’s martial arts. You can spend gambit (morale just flows better in such a statement) to increase it to granting an attack with a +d6 bonus to damage, but even when you’re totally tapped, you can always add a little damage to someone’s turn.

Sounds like a solid adaptation of the Monk mechanic.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Doesn’t really matter if it’s called Battlefront or not, at this stage of design. By setting an operative space and imposing conditions (whatever they are - certainly doesn’t have to be concentration), you have a framework within which you can judge potency. You can try some crazy idea in design that’s plainly OP with the rationale that “it’s just within 15ft” and then test it and scale it until it works AND feels right.

Having hard limits is permission to think of gonzo things within those limits. Boundaries enable creativity.

So it’s not just “inside here, they get an initiative bonus.” It’s, conceptually, “gambits (or whatever they are) can only work inside here.” Which means the gambits can be better than at-will minor boosts. And that re-positioning gambits, or opportunities to operate within the Battlefront, also become valuable to the Marshal and their allies.

What if the Battlefront was considered difficult terrain to enemies but doubled move speeds for allies within it? That seems powerful - but it’s just within 15 feet.

What if allies in the Battlefront could use the Marshall’s AC or their own (whichever was greater)?

Anyway - I’m not saying you’ve gotta have these or the class will suck. Im just spitballing Marshall-y stuff within a framework.

If I’m advocating anything, it’s that I’d like to see a distinction for the Marshall. Something that isn’t warmed-over Ki or Bardic inspiration. I like the gambit idea. I like the support framework. You folks have some really cool ideas going.

I don’t like the idea of gambit abilities only being usable within the aura.

the rest, maybe, but I don’t think we need to go much bigger on the level 1 ability. It feels pretty in line with the melee abilities it replaces.

 

[Fenris-77]

I agree completely about the design space.

Less space and more effect is, I think, a more compelling build than weaker powers that affect more space. It make decisions about the Marshals movement and positioning more important and the actual effect of the abilities is more potent - both of which, IMO, make for a more interesting class. Decisions with consequences is always at the front of my checklist.