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Warlord vs. Str. Cleric

I don't believe that people are disappointed in the inspiring warlord because they want to deal damage like a striker, but rather that you often default to having no option other than a basic attack. Sure, you can use Wolf Pack Tactics or Furious Smash, but if you just can't maneuver so that you and an ally are on the same foe or adjacent to each other, then you get no benefit from that power and may as well use a basic attack. The battle cleric is far more flexible, and seems more effective in combat in addition to being a better healer. The buffs they give with their attacks don't *always* require that an ally be directly adjacent to to them or the same opponent.

The inspiring warlord needs some of their ally-boosting abilities to work at range, or something that lets them more easily get into that tactical position adjacent to a particular foe or ally - perhaps a bonus to charge attacks. I was envisioning someone who can smack the bad guy, and tell his ally "Hit him like this!", not "Well, I only hit him for 3 points, but you go ahead and get him now". Wolf Pack Tactics is a good power, but is highly situational. There's no at-will for the inspiring warlord that is always superior to a basic melee attack. That's what is most disappointing about the class.
Yup this is the biggest problem I've encountered with my dragonborn Inspiring Warlord as well. I almost always need someone else to be with me before most of my abilities can have maximum effect.

That's why I multiclassed, first as a Warlock, then as a Paladin (story changes). Gives me more stuff to do without needing someone else by my side.
 

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Am I the only one here who actually likes their Inspiring Warlord?

Nope.

I played one in all three sections of the Weekened in the Realms on Saturday. I had a great time. No, I wasn't doing rockstar damage or holding off hordes of enemies singlehandedly, but the people who did were plenty glad to have me around.

Every time I used my standard action to tell someone "you attack that guy again" all I got was a "Yes, sir!" and a smile. Free healing just for spending an action point you were going to spend anyway -- who doesn't like that? I take a round of doing unimpressive damage to set up the paladin for bringing the hurt with a bonus to hit and damage? Cool by me.

In fact, I'd say it was the perfect choice of characters for me, if somewhat by accident. An extra leader should always be welcome at a table, so I wanted to make something that would help any group composition. Then it turned out I was one of two first level characters put in with 4 fourth level characters. I was a lot more useful letting the cool people be cool more often than I would have been in most other roles.

So, no, warlords may not be for everybody. But for a long time, clerics weren't really popular either.
 

Nope.

I played one in all three sections of the Weekened in the Realms on Saturday. I had a great time. No, I wasn't doing rockstar damage or holding off hordes of enemies singlehandedly, but the people who did were plenty glad to have me around.

Every time I used my standard action to tell someone "you attack that guy again" all I got was a "Yes, sir!" and a smile. Free healing just for spending an action point you were going to spend anyway -- who doesn't like that? I take a round of doing unimpressive damage to set up the paladin for bringing the hurt with a bonus to hit and damage? Cool by me.

In fact, I'd say it was the perfect choice of characters for me, if somewhat by accident. An extra leader should always be welcome at a table, so I wanted to make something that would help any group composition. Then it turned out I was one of two first level characters put in with 4 fourth level characters. I was a lot more useful letting the cool people be cool more often than I would have been in most other roles.

So, no, warlords may not be for everybody. But for a long time, clerics weren't really popular either.

Thanks for your testimony. I usually feel something very similar when we're playing, especially when flanking with our dagger rogue. Hammer and Anvil is by far one of my favorite powers already, especially if the rogue missed or wasn't able to attack on his turn. I know fully well that my hit isn't the really important part of the attack, and I'm very okay with that when I see those sneak attack d8s rolled.

Considering some of the complaints I've heard, though, I am convinced that there needs to be errata on some of the powers. In particular, more of them need to work on an ally not only adjacent to me but adjecent to an enemy adjacent to me; this wouldn't penalize us for flanking. Also, it would be nice to have more of my powers work on me, though I'm not particularly feeling the hurt yet; I just have to be careful with what I do. And third, the text in many powers needs to be changed to close burst rather than ranged so I don't provoke OAs from using my powers in melee as it seems was intended; we already play it this way, but it would be nice to have WotC back us up.

Honestly, my concern isn't that I need to be in melee next to my friends, but that my presence be viable when I am. I've already learned my lesson about getting separated from the party (due to an encounter involving deathjump spiders and an attempted [failed] ambush from the trees :blush:) and I never intend to make that mistake again.
 

I've been reading the Cleric powers... and they do eclipse the Warlord. Healing wise its not even comparable... but they boost more I feel. At-wills are fun too.
 

Nope.

I played one in all three sections of the Weekened in the Realms on Saturday. I had a great time. No, I wasn't doing rockstar damage or holding off hordes of enemies singlehandedly, but the people who did were plenty glad to have me around.

Every time I used my standard action to tell someone "you attack that guy again" all I got was a "Yes, sir!" and a smile. Free healing just for spending an action point you were going to spend anyway -- who doesn't like that? I take a round of doing unimpressive damage to set up the paladin for bringing the hurt with a bonus to hit and damage? Cool by me.

In fact, I'd say it was the perfect choice of characters for me, if somewhat by accident. An extra leader should always be welcome at a table, so I wanted to make something that would help any group composition. Then it turned out I was one of two first level characters put in with 4 fourth level characters. I was a lot more useful letting the cool people be cool more often than I would have been in most other roles.

So, no, warlords may not be for everybody. But for a long time, clerics weren't really popular either.
This has inspired me a little. I think I'm going to give a change of play style when I next play my warlord.

I'm going to try giving more orders. I'm not going to say "have a free move action" to the ranger as he gets dropped to the floor again. I'm going to say "stand your a$$ up, you slovenly waste of good air".

See if it changes my whole outlook on the thing...
 

In general though, support classes are always going to be less popular overall then, say, Strikers. That's just how it is.
Truth spoken.

Part of the problem is that if you - the player - aren't a leader of your gaming group, then your Tactical Warlord won't work very well. You have to be able to convince your allies to move into position....if they wanna go charging off instead (and lots of players do!), then the Taclord's powers are less useful.


Inspiring Warlords? A poor class path, I'm afraid. It's too bad. :(
 


Truth spoken.

Part of the problem is that if you - the player - aren't a leader of your gaming group, then your Tactical Warlord won't work very well. You have to be able to convince your allies to move into position....if they wanna go charging off instead (and lots of players do!), then the Taclord's powers are less useful.


Inspiring Warlords? A poor class path, I'm afraid. It's too bad. :(

For movement based effects, you can just offer the movement conditionally. Don't just give someone a move action or a shift. Offer a move to do X, or a shift to Y spot. People will usually want the free effect, so you can steer your allies to the spots you want. Pretty much the same thing for with some of the attack bonus powers.

Inspiring 'lords are really good on saves. At higher levels, their abilities granting saves modified by CHA will tend to be an automatic success. So they clear conditions reliably before people are impacted by them. Or the bonus can cancel out some save penalties. Sacred Flame is decent condition removal (really good for an at will, actually), but it can be a little hit or miss when you really need to get rid of something right away since you have to hit and there's no bonus to the save.

But really, the Inspiring warlord seems to work differently to the Tac one. A tactical lord can reasonably prioritize INT equal to or even ahead of STR. On the other hand, the Inspiring character seems to get less from CHA. So that leaves more room for directly fighty attributes.
 

When the sneak peak of the warlord class was released, I emailed my DM and said "dibs on the warlord!" ;)

I'm playing a tactical warlord, and it is a crazy amount of fun. 4e has a much stronger tactical aspect to play than any earlier edition, and the tactical warlord (the build I'm trying first) is ideally suited to leverage that. Warlord powers allow you to give your allies free actions, re-position them (and occassionally enemies) around the battlefield, and of course buff & heal. /If/ you take the leader role seriously, and coordinate your party, those effects have quite an impact, and are a lot of fun. If you're herding cats, OTOH, I can see how it'd just be frustrating.

The only negative comment I've heard that I can admit to having noticed, myself, is the lack of an at-will that's worth doing when you're on your own. It's true that a lot of at wills aren't /particularly/ better than a basic attack, but most are at least a little better, and the warlord's, without allies to leverage, aren't. It's a minor quibble, though. It's rare I'm sepparated from my allies /and/ just using basic attacks.
 

Why the Warlord is SO Flippin Frustratin

There's a very simple method to fix silly players.
If they do dumb things, they shouldn't expect support from the support class.


Except none of them NEED your support. Not for their at-wills to operate at 100% effectiveness and power. Sure you can give em that boost to 120%, but they don't need you to work with them to be reasonably or even exceptionally good at their job. Although there are a few poor at-wills among the other classes, no other class will have a harder time finding a chance to use it's at-wills and make em work to full strength than the Warlord. None. If you're playing a Warlord, you NEED at least one other PC to be very actively positioning themselves in regard to your powers. Probably more than one if you want your encounter and daily powers to have their full, mathematically expected benefit on the encounter.

The problem with the Warlord is he NEEDS the party's cooperation, not the other way around. Or his powers are operating at 70%.

In order for Wolf Pack Tactics to be worth anything there HAS to be an ally who wants to shift one square (and I don't have the books with me but don't they have to be adjacent to you or the target enemy as well?) Through 4 encounters with a Warlord I think this happened... well... NEVER. I would say, "Does anyone need to shift one?", the response was always,"No, stop wasting time trying to find the slim chance that we need your power and make a basic attack".

The same is true for Commander's Strike, Viper's Strike, and Furious Smash. Another character HAS to be ADJACENT to the Warlord and/or his target. Not even nearby, not previously next to the Warlord 3 spaces behind him because the Warlord had a higher initiative and needed to put the moster down before it kills the ranger, but ADJACENT. The cleric needs an ally somewhere in the battle for his powers to get their full effect, a reasonable condition for a leader. The Warlord needs an ally somewhere they won't be most the time. Where they can't be much of the time even if they are trying to work with him.

I would say the Cleric power Priest's Shield suffers from this a bit as well, but at least that power gives a +1 bonus to AC to the Cleric as well as an adjacent ally so even if there is no buddy adjacent the power is still always better than a basic attack. Priest's Shield also has the benefit of the +1 to AC being against any subsequent attack, not just from the enemy just hit. This makes it actually fun to use against minions. Just try using Viper's Strike against a minion and tell me you had fun.

There may even be a friendly helpful player who knows how all your powers work but there just isn't any good the power could in that situation. There are some powers other classes have like the Rogue's Deft Strike that may not be useful every turn. If the Rogue is adjacent to the target he want's to attack then it is as little use as Wolf Pack Tactics. But imagine if the Rogue needed an ally next to the target he wants to make a Deft Strike towards! Obviously there are times when this is possible, but it would be a severe limitation on the power, reducing it's utility as an at-will and causing frustrations in the Rogue player when he wants to move 2 squares and attack a target but can't, because none of his allies had positioned themselves where the co-dependant rogueneeded em.

Heck, Viper's Strike feels like a Riposte Strike that has had this exact limitation put on it. Only the triggering condition is even less likely to happen in the first place.

And I'd like to point out that this dissatisfaction with the Warlord and his at-will powers has nothing to with him being a "support" class. I don't want to play a stirker, defender, or controller. I understand that their has to be some separation between the Warlord's attack and the benefit it grants going to an ally. Otherwise his powers would have to be weaker because they're more versatile. Or his powers would just be better than everyone else's cause not only can he use them, but so can somebody else.

For example, the way to improve Commander's Strike would not be for the Warlord to be able to use it on himself, because that would make it flat out better than several other classes' powers like the Paladin's Holy Strike or the Rogue's Sly Flourish; which are essentially a basic attack with another ability modifier bonus to damage. The way to make Commander's Strike a better power would be to give it a range of 5. This wouldn't increase Commander's Strike's mathematical effect on the battle, but it would greatly increase it's ease of use.

Like the Cleric's amazing Rightous Brand, the Warlord's at-will powers should have a range of 5 or better as a general rule. This wouldn't make them more powerful when they go off, it would just increase the meager chances the Warlord currently has of being able to do anything other than a basic attack. I feel like the designers just hated the Warlord since a Cleric has two at-wills that can give a bonust to any ally the Cleric can see, one at-will that gives a bonuse to the Cleric AND an adjacent ally at once, and one at-will that despite being a melee attack, still gives an AMAZING BONUS USING THE PRIMARY ABILITY SCORE to an ally within 5 squares. Furious Smash might attack Fortitude and give its bonus to non-melee attacks, but it does half as much or less damage initially, uses a non-primary ability score, and works on only one attack as well as being much harder to set up.
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So in short, it's not so much that the Warlords powers are mathematically weaker than the Cleric's or other classes' powers, but that they are SO much harder to find a chance to use. Mostly because of their limited range and awkward requirements that an ally be positioned just right. Which is assuming the power didn't have a somewhat limited usefulness to begin with. Useful sometimes sure, but I'd bet the math behind the game assumes Viper's Strike will provoke an opportunity attack a LOT more often than actually happens.

Heck, I bet the game assumes that a succesful Furious Smash will always be followed up by an attack from an ally. Or that it is just as easy to set up a Commander's Strike as a Reaping Strike. I think it was James Wyatt who said the game assumes the Rogue has Combat Advantage every turn for him to keep up in damage dealing with the Ranger. The Warlord has a similar problem compared to the Cleric, only much, much worse. The Warlord just can't possibly use his powers well as often as the Game Balance God's assume he can.
 

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