Warrior-Mage Prestige Classes: which are viable & which are not

[StGabe]

And I'd also like to point out that warrior-mages have been around even in 3.0, even before prestige classes like Eldritch Knights or Spellswords. They're called Clerics and Druids.

... with the divine spell list, not the arcane spell list
... the cleric was largely understood to be one of the most powerful classes in 3E

The reality if the EK hybrid is neither of the options you provide. One of the optimal ways to use them is as a wizard who augments their somewhat small pool of available spells by doing some pretty very nice ranged weapon damage (they aren't that far behind an equal level ranger here). Otherwise you just end up with a character that is Jack of All Trades and Near Master of Many (as opposed to the proverbial "master of none"). Out of spells? Get out that two handed sword or bow. Fighter goes down, is paralyzed/held/etc. and no one can fix him immediately? You're far better off filling that role off than you were before. In fact, if you use some defensive spells you are going to be a quite decent tank all by yourself.

...

In fact, one level of spell progression isn't that much. For example, the EK combo you mention, even with a slightly staggered progression, is still casting the same levels of spells that, say, a sorceror of the same level is casting (and while Sorceror's are no Wizard's, they are still plenty powerful and probably better balanced with the other base classes).

 

[charlesatan]

A PrC for spell-casters of any kind that doesn't grant full caster progression isn't worth taking. You need both spell levels and caster levels to be able to compete as you level; these two things are that important, and nothing published to date trumps the ability to toss wish/prayer spells and reliably beat top-tier Spell Resistance. If that means that fighter-mage PrCs have to offer the meat of both parent base classes to make them viable PrCs, so be it. It's not like DMs are required to have them in a given campaign.

In the strictest sense, yes, that's true. But warrior-mages aren't played like mages (and neither are they played as straight-out warriors unless they're fighting some feeble opponent). The usual "optimal" way of playing them is usually buffing and then attacking.

 

[charlesatan]

The chief benefit of the ascetic mage is swapping out Wisdom bonus to AC for Charisma. And AC is the least of the enlightened fist's problems (with mage armor or greater mage armor, he actually gets a pretty sweet deal there). It's a crippler to have to cough up those six levels of sorcerer, and hopefully the designers have figured that out.

An Enlightened Fist is admittedly not exactly a no-brainer like the Abjurant Champion but it can be optimized. Feats like Power Attack and Arcane Strike combined with spells like Polymorph (and the variant Draconic Polymorph) and Wraithstrike can give it a big boost, perhaps not as huge as an Eldritch Knight/Spellsword but a significant one nonetheless.

 

[Felon]

And the other side of the coin is that they have some truly very powerful spells. Just the BAB bonus penalty alone is made up for almost instantly by the fact that they will have Bull's Strength running whenever they can (and Cat's Grace, etc. if they can prepare for a really hard finght).

Note the "whenever they can" part. A fighter/mage cannot ask opponents to put their fight on pause for a minute while he throws all these buffs which you treat as a given.

And even when he does get to buff, his lowered BAB just means he's expending this effort to break even.

Which he doesn't even accomplish then, because BAB is more than a bonus to hit. It's your attacks per round and it's your ability to meet requirements for feats.

In short, a fighter/wizard relying on 5 levels of wizard to provide all these buffs to fill the gulf between himself and a pure fighter will fall unacceptably short.

Exactly the problem. The fighter has to spend a significant part of his wealth allotment to use these buffs with anything at all like the frequency with which he can just cast them if he takes some levels of Wizard.

A character will earn hundreds of thousands of gold pieces over his career. Money will come and money will go. Levels are a much more fixed and finite resource.

If you have the choice of blowing money or blowing levels to get something, trust me, you're usually better off spending the money.

 

[charlesatan]

... with the divine spell list, not the arcane spell list
... the cleric was largely understood to be one of the most powerful classes in 3E

The reality if the EK hybrid is neither of the options you provide. One of the optimal ways to use them is as a wizard who augments their somewhat small pool of available spells by doing some pretty very nice ranged weapon damage (they aren't that far behind an equal level ranger here). Otherwise you just end up with a character that is Jack of All Trades and Near Master of Many (as opposed to the proverbial "master of none"). Out of spells? Get out that two handed sword or bow. Fighter goes down, is paralyzed/held/etc. and no one can fix him immediately? You're far better off filling that role off than you were before. In fact, if you use some defensive spells you are going to be a quite decent tank all by yourself.

1) I think the problem that's stemming from this argument is the way you perceive warrior-mages are played. As I said in the previous post, we're thinking of method #1 which is buffing then attacking rather than flinging spells with a superior base attack. From an optimization standpoint, while do #2 with a warrior-mage when a straight out wizard or socrerer does just that? As for the ranged weapon suggestion, is it the first resort or the last resort? Because if it's not the former, then again, you're better off as a straight Wiz or Sor. If it's the latter, well, you honestly don't need to resort to that if you have a spare wand of fireballs tucked in somewhere.

2) Yes, I know Clerics and Druids are on the top of the most powerful classes list. These warrior-mages, however, don't approach that level (although they are probably the next highest, below Wiz and Sor in my book). Still, that doesn't address that the Cleric can buff and tank (Divine Power, Divine Favor, Righteous Might, Greater Magic Weapon/Vestments) while still being able to cast spells (i.e. Flamestrike) and the same goes for Druids, arguably with a bigger edge (Polymorph for several hours in a day and still able to cast spells like Firestorm).

In fact, one level of spell progression isn't that much. For example, the EK combo you mention, even with a slightly staggered progression, is still casting the same levels of spells that, say, a sorceror of the same level is casting (and while Sorceror's are no Wizard's, they are still plenty powerful and probably better balanced with the other base classes).

Note that the one-level spell progression hit only happens in rare circumstances (achievable only by a Regional Feat in Forgotten Realms, and some aqcquiring the Outside type for the rest). Two is most likely the norm. Also, it's not the same as having access to spells of the same level as that of a sorcerer of equal level. Sorcerers at least can cast more spells per day compared to a Wizard/Ftr/Eldritch Knight. The hit is more pronounced if the spellcasting class was Sor instead of Wiz. Two levels of spellcasting progression lost is a big hit. That's why Arcane Trickster has full spellcasting progression even while retaining Sneak Attack damage AND spellcasting: because the three levels of Rog (or two other Sneak Attack levels) is a price in itself. Same goes with Mystic Theurge. In theory it might look good but in practice, it falls short of expectation (but by no means is it "weak"). See Corinth's argument.

 

[Felix]

The EK is significantly better than the core wizard at melee

No kidding. The wizard over there won't care when he casts his higher level spells at you.

And why should he NEED other fighter feats?

...For fighting?

He is already a fully fledged wizard.

Minus 2 caster levels. He's "nearly fledged".

The wizard is in fact giving up very little for all these abilities.

2 caster levels.

And "all these abilities" are the ability to poke people with pointy sticks. Even trade?

You are complaining only that they don't have it all.

Sorry friend, but I'm not complaining: I don't think they should have more. If you had read "I think they're balanced" as "GeStAlT RoXXoRZ!!!1!", allow me to rephrase:

The Eldrich Knight is balanced as it is.

Let me repeat this:

Wizards have the lowest hit die and the lowest BAB for a reason. A level 20 wizard is almost certainly of the most powerful characters in the core game. They don't need even more power.

At the point when he can cast [Quickened] True Strike as he likes, why on earth would he care what his BAB was?

A more accurate title for this thread would be:

What are the best broken rules out there to use in order to get around all the pesky limitations built into the wizard to make up for all the inherent power already in the base class.

Would you rather be casting Cloudkills, or have a 5% greater chance to hit the ogre with your pointy stick?

 

[Felon]

An Enlightened Fist is admittedly not exactly a no-brainer like the Abjurant Champion but it can be optimized. Feats like Power Attack and Arcane Strike combined with spells like Polymorph (and the variant Draconic Polymorph) and Wraithstrike can give it a big boost, perhaps not as huge as an Eldritch Knight/Spellsword but a significant one nonetheless.

Heh. If you're milking wraithstrike and polymorph, you scarcely need anything the enlightened fist offers. Those are two spells so likely to get a thorough bud-nipping, they don't even register on the ol' viability radar.

 

[charlesatan]

Heh. If you're milking wraithstrike and polymorph, you scarcely need anything the enlightened fist offers. Those are two spells so likely to get a thorough bud-nipping, they don't even register on the ol' viability radar.

There is the d8 hit points (which is more than what the EK gives you) and Arcane Fist/Hold Ray for the same reasons you want Channel Spell from the Spellsword. Overall a more competent unarmored, unarmed monk-type character. The penalties to hit requires an investment in Arcane Strike but otherwise so-so. If you want something funky (since it's only now I'm actually checking its prerequisites), mix-and-match it with Warlock: ranged (Hadoken!) and melee (Shoryuken!) capabilities.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Don't think anybody's mentioned the RageMage yet.

It gets spell progression on even levels, can cast while raging, ignores a small amount of ASF, and gains some bonuses to spells while raging over 10 levels. I've never played one so I'll let somebody else cover how balanced it is.

 

[Seeten]

I ignored StGabe right at the start, making this thread better for me