D&D 5E Was Champion Fighter designed to be on par with Battlemaster?

[smbakeresq]

Also, they changed the crit rules a few times. In the playtest it was maxed damage + extra die roll. Which is significantly more powerful.

We switched back to this at our table as crits should be something special considering they are rare and the Champion class is certainly "built" around it. We also use the "extra die roll" literally, so if you use a great sword or maul its an extra d6, but a greataxe gets the full d12. This mirrors the barbarian rule about crits. This helps a little to offset the higher average dmg for the maul and greatsword.

It goes both ways, a monster crit does the same thing so is massive compared to what the characters can do in some cases. BTW this makes armor that reduces enemy crits greatly more effective.

It seems to play better, and when I DM for the kids they really love the crit rule as its a big number. The rule should be that way anyway, you shouldn't get a crit and then suck out with damage rolls to do less than you would with a lucky roll.

 

[abirdcall]

If the wizard has to drop spells, then at some point we run out of spells and you just TPK.

This is where the non-long rest classes shine. If the Wizards are dealing with all of the encounters anyway then the Fighter doesn't matter, Battlemaster or not. If the Wizard doesn't feel like they need to conserve their spell slots then something has gone wrong.

(And in practice, the party just goes to the mansion. And if you try and set up an ambush after the mansion, then you get one huge fight/encounter, and then they go back into the mansion. )

Then they waste too much time and fail to achieve whatever goal they have. The PCs can be safe by not adventuring at all. Accomplishing something takes risk.

 

[smbakeresq]

I do it a little different. I set up big encounters, fights last several rounds usually. In addition, don't let short rests occur in dangerous areas unless spellcaster uses the rope trick or similar magic to make it safe. Tjhose healing kit uses should be gone already by the BBEG, along with about half the spells in the group. To me the DMs goal (besides fun) is to wear the characters resources down; if they get to the BBEG with full resources available that's sort of a DM fail. The BBEG idea (and advantage) is that his minions wear them down while he has his full resources available. The players advantage is healing and they usually out number the BBEG.

A great way to do this and often under-utilized even in published adventures is terrain and hazards, especially extreme temperatures. As DM you don't have to track them so it makes encounters tougher for minimal effort. In addition, they tax resources and make utility stuff more valuable.

A group with full resources available should beat the BBEG most every time. Wear them down some and then the BBEG becomes a dramatic fight as he goes down as the characters are almost dead also.

 

[kilpatds]

This is where the non-long rest classes shine. If the Wizards are dealing with all of the encounters anyway then the Fighter doesn't matter, Battlemaster or not. If the Wizard doesn't feel like they need to conserve their spell slots then something has gone wrong.

Uh ... the wizard shouldn't be able to just "deal" with all the encounters anyway. If the wizard is so much better that the fighter might as well have stayed in bed, then it's a different problem.

For a fun encounter, everyone should need to be involved. For a fun hard encounter, everyone should be trying to figure out what they have they don't usually use, and if it's relevant to the situation (and how to fast-talk the DM into letting it be relevant)

Then they waste too much time and fail to achieve whatever goal they have. The PCs can be safe by not adventuring at all. Accomplishing something takes risk.

Yes, I'm aware of the theory. However, "fun" isn't always in this direction. At high levels, failure is frequently "campaign over" (it's not that the princess dies. It's that Orcus finishes his ritual..). And having the campaign end over a clock the PCs couldn't have known about is terri-bad.

Basically: "Fun" is an important design constraint I think is not being sufficient considered in this tangent discussion.

 

[steeldragons]

The answer to "Was the Champion Fighter designed to be on par with Battlemaster?" is, clearly,"No."

Whether or not they can deal comparative damage or not is, really, completely irrelevant to this question.

The Champion was designed to be the "simple/easy/quick to learn & play/enjoyed or expected by early-edition preferring folks" fighter. Pick up a sword and a shield and start rolling some dice.

The Battlemaster was designed to be more "complex/moving parts/manuever-based-minutia appreciated by later-edition preferring folks" fighter. Pick up a sword and a shield. Then pick your maneuvers, plan out the "how" you're character is going to fight, what you can do to "win," which maneuvers will "stack" with other improvements for the most DPR, etc...etc...

They are not designed to be "en par." They are designed from two completely separate premises for two distinctive play-styles/preferences.

 

[abirdcall]

Uh ... the wizard shouldn't be able to just "deal" with all the encounters anyway. If the wizard is so much better that the fighter might as well have stayed in bed, then it's a different problem.

Not sure what you are disagreeing with.

Yes, I'm aware of the theory. However, "fun" isn't always in this direction. At high levels, failure is frequently "campaign over" (it's not that the princess dies. It's that Orcus finishes his ritual..). And having the campaign end over a clock the PCs couldn't have known about is terri-bad.

Basically: "Fun" is an important design constraint I think is not being sufficient considered in this tangent discussion.

Why do the PCs not know about this?

An adventure without consequences is the same as an ability check without consequences. What is the point?

A campaign needs to end sometime. If the PCs can't fail, then there is no point.

 

[kilpatds]

A campaign needs to end sometime. If the PCs can't fail, then there is no point.

Uh ... I strongly disagree with you here, and I'll just leave it at that.

 

[smbakeresq]

Uh ... I strongly disagree with you here, and I'll just leave it at that.

I agree with you. For example, with the kids I am running Princes of the Apocalypse, and will integrate Storm Giants Thunder at level 5 as is suggested. Then I will run both concurrently. The theme to integrate is that the All Father is displeased with the elemental cults and Kraken society and the dragon each prodding a different giant race to take over from the others, Giants should stand alone and above all and not be give in to machinations of others.

Using xp for levels instead of story awards will slow the advancement somewhat, but that also means the characters will be "over" the suggested levels once they reach the big encounters. That's ok, and easy to deal with. It also means we have about 30-40 sessions ahead at least. I figure that's a year, and they will reach level 15+ easy. But the published adventures are fine with that level.

 

[Lord Twig]

A campaign needs to end sometime. If the PCs can't fail, then there is no point.

Uh ... I strongly disagree with you here, and I'll just leave it at that.

I'm going to have to go with ad_hoc here. If the high level characters are trying to stop a ritual that will destroy the world, they better not take their time about it!

Now I'm not so simulationist that I will set a time and if they don't make it, boom goes the world. But I also will not allow them to dillydally. They will have some idea of how long it will take.

For example, I would tell the party that they believe the ritual could be completed in three days if the bad guys have everything they need. So the time limit is set. Three days.

The party heads off. Now say that they blow through the encounters and get there in two. They will find that the enemies started a little earlier than they thought and they are nearing completion. But I will give them some kind of advantage, maybe they can take a long rest before attacking.

If they made it on time in three days, they can prepare themselves with a short rest and attack, but no long rest.

If things go bad and they have to retreat for an extra long rest and get there after 4 days then the enemies will have started a bit late, but the ritual is just about complete. Time to charge in with everything you've got!

Finally, if they insist on taking a long rest after every fight I will inform those with the proper knowledge skills that they know they will not make it on time if they keep resting. I won't force them to do anything, but after the 4th or 5th long rest. Boom. World changing event. Welcome to the aftermath!

Again, I wouldn't just spring it on them. I would be telling them flat out that they aren't going to make it every time they stop for a long rest. And it isn't even out-of-game knowledge. The characters would know that they are running out of time.

Honestly it has never been a problem with my groups. They know there is a deadline and weigh that every time they consider stopping for a rest. They don't just assume that the world will wait for them to get there.

 

[Lord Twig]

Back on topic here...

I really prefer the Champion to the Battle Master. Just a matter of personal preference.

The one change I would make is that I would allow Remarkable Athlete to apply to all Strength and Dex skills (there are no Con skills) even if the Champion does have his proficiency added to it. It is only four skills (Athletics, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand and Stealth), and we are only talking about a bonus of +1 to +3. Compared to Expertise, which doubles your Proficiency, I don't think half again is game breaking.