D&D 5E Was Champion Fighter designed to be on par with Battlemaster?

[mellored]

Wouldn't happen to have a linkable source for this, would you? Even removing the "damage output in combat" assumption of my original question, and stretching value across other tiers of play, I assume they meant all options to be fun and playable by someone. But seeing this stated in print would make me feel better.

Is there any reason to think that champion was intended to be weaker?

Also, it's not too hard for the champion to out damage the battlemaster.
Mainly advantage, which multiples the crit range (friendly wizard/bard/sorcerer/warlock casting fairy fire, greater invisibility, foresight, or someone knocking them prone, ect...).
Or any source of +xdy to damage that get's doubled with crits (paladin's crusader's mantle +1d4, flame tongue's +3d6, valor bards inspiration dice).


Now I still think they could use a minor boost. But I don't see the gap being any bigger than any other sub-class gap, or any sign that it's intentional.
Beastmaster rangers, blade warlocks, war clerics, and elemental monks are much worse than their counterpart for instance.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, that reddit calculation is a bit simplistic. The real deal in optimizing your fight is to avoid missing.

Sure, advantage is a way to accomplish that, but there's so many sources of advantage, it's too simplistic to assume the Battlemaster is gaining Advantage while the Champion isn't.

It would be interesting to see that reddit math redone with two changes:
* that both gain advantage from another source
This favors the Champion, since this doesn't just double damage, it doubles "improved criticals" too

* that the Battlemaster uses his maneuvers to turn misses into hits (the few times advantage doesn't help you, that is)
Sadly this is the real power play, and is only available to the BM.

 

[smbakeresq]

The key behind the Champion or any other crit build is to read the "Conditions" section in PHB every time you go to play and make sure you understand all the ways to get advantage. Make sure your spellcasters know this also, and constantly harp on them that its better for the group for you to take attacks with advantage then many of the direct damaging spells they will use. Even a simple spell like Grease can set up advantage for your attacks and it is far better than another first level spell they can cast.

Champion with Variant Human really excels since the feats greatly enhance the Champion. That extra feat can be for fun use.

Its worth taking an OA to get the creature you can get advantage on, your tough anyway, or take the mobile feat.

 

[mellored]

Well, that reddit calculation is a bit simplistic. The real deal in optimizing your fight is to avoid missing.

Sure, advantage is a way to accomplish that, but there's so many sources of advantage, it's too simplistic to assume the Battlemaster is gaining Advantage while the Champion isn't.

It would be interesting to see that reddit math redone with two changes:
* that both gain advantage from another source
This favors the Champion, since this doesn't just double damage, it doubles "improved criticals" too

* that the Battlemaster uses his maneuvers to turn misses into hits (the few times advantage doesn't help you, that is)
Sadly this is the real power play, and is only available to the BM.

Agreed.

And following that...
Level 20, with 100 attacks (including action surge), 2 short rests, 2d6+5 attack, and advantage half the time, and precision strike for battlemaster.
Simplifying by subtracting out the baseline fighter's damage.

Champion adds
50 attacks * 2d6 * 10% extra crits = 35 damage
50 attacks * 2d6 * 18% extra crits with advantage = 63 damage
= 98 extra damage per day, +1 AC (fighting style), and regeneration.

Battlemaster
5 dice * 3 rests= 15 precision strikes.
Assuming 2 precsion strikes still miss = 12 addition hits per day
(2d6+5) * 12
= 144 extra damage per day.


Champion wins under those assumptions.

 

[guachi]

Like mentioned earlier, Champion benefits a lot from feats.

They have so little to do on their bonus actions or reactions that it's easy for a champion to take advantage of anything the feat gives.

I'm thinking of the combat feats like Polearm Mastery, Great Weapon Mastery, Sentinel, Shield Mastery.

I had great fun (at least for awhile) in an AL game as a Champion just using Shield Mastery and knocking foes down. It was a melee heavy party so lots benefited.

Then the new DM said I had to actually attack first before using bonus action. This despite Crawford saying the timing didn't matter... And I was the one who tweeted the question, even!

 

[Tony Vargas]

98 > 144

???

 

[smbakeresq]

A lot of it depends on the rests situation, with 0 chances to rest Champion is better the longer the day and with short rests every other encounter BM wins. In the above example what happens if only 1 short rest? That cuts a third off the BM damage but does nothing to the Champion.

Also if you have anything that adds to your crits then Champion is ahead. A Half Orc adds an extra die each time to critical hits.

Essentially, using your example, the BM can add maybe 50 extra points of damage a day under the right circumstances, the Champion wins everywhere else.

I think its close enough that it really doesn't matter, flavor is more important. Personally, I would maybe add a feature where you can use weapons 1 size larger, or something along those lines to really distinguish the Archetype.

 

[smbakeresq]

Then the new DM said I had to actually attack first before using bonus action. This despite Crawford saying the timing didn't matter... And I was the one who tweeted the question, even!

Wow that's kind of d**k move, considering that it is not really up for interpretation outside of DM caveat.

 

[smbakeresq]

???

The idea was that all you got was the 46 points of extra damage spread out over an adventuring day, but the Champion gets better defense and the emergency heal. Actually to me the initiative bonus from Remarkable athlete is pretty good also.

If an additional feature of champion was that you got full proficiency on initiative it would be very good, and makes sense. They are trained for combat so should be first to react in a combat situation.

 

[mellored]

???

98, +1 AC, + regeneration > 144


126, +1 AC, + regeneration >> 144 if you have advantage all the time.
70, +1 AC, + regeneration ~ 144 extra if you never had advantage.

If you end up with disadvantage a lot, champion really suffers.
Also, battlemaster still flat out wins at level 3.