Water, water everywhere, Nor any drop to drink

That's in part because the different subclasses of bard, cleric, paladin, etc are designed to allow it to fill different roles and make different types of character. That's the key difference between subclasses.
But even for a given character, there is a lot of flexibility - eg a cleric can swap between Spiritual Weapon and Aid, or between Flame Strike, Commune and various healing options.

the fighter can turn extra attacks into support through manuvers, pushing enemies to get them in the right area, knocking them prone, or granting allies attacks. And they can use their Action Surge to do things such as the Help action rather than making multiple attacks.
I think it's fair to say that a BM fighter's manoeuvres aren't as big an overall part of the character's "oomph" as a cleric's spells, and so choosing between different manoeuvres doesn't introduce as much role flexibility as spell changes do for a cleric.

I also think it's fair to say that a fighter who regularly used Action Surge for Help rather than attacking would be notably underpowered.
 

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This takes me back to the issue of necessity vs possibility.

When the warlord topic first arose in a big way last year, I thought your claim was that a warlord along the 4e lines is impossible in 5e. But now your claim seems to be that it's not needed.
That is not the context in which we are conversing. We aren't talking about what a warlord can/should do. But rather about a claim that Aragorn was somehow being a warlord mechanically when certain scenes played out. That's a forced perspective. It's also not necessary. Nothing in the narrative of that story distinguishes his actions as anything more than a noble ranger roleplaying his character and the other individuals playing theirs.

That second claim is, in my view, much weaker: given that D&D has been played, quite successfully, with only 3 classes (cleric, fighter, magic-user) - and that there's an argument even in that respect that the cleric is superfluous to the strictest specification of the game's requirements (eg no clerics in Chainmail) - then no other class is needed.
Speaking of weak arguments: That's called a strawman.

But other classes are wanted. Including, by some, the warlord. The fact that you don't want it doesn't seem to have much bearing on whether or not others are making some mistake in wanting it.
I get that it's easier on some to make an individual into the "bad guy" rather than realize it's not just him, but the vast majority.

But Aragorn does get to hear his dying words. How does that work in D&D mechanics? Also, Boromir's body was full of arrows. How does that work in D&D mechanics (given that, by the rules, some hit dice can be spent and all the damage healed)? Given that 5e is rife with non-magical healing possibilities which would allow a person to quickly recover from being pincushioned by orcs, how hard to you really want to push the example?
You tell me. You seem to be one of the people asking for a warlord to non-magically talk someone back from near death. Are you not? I certainly ain't. So why should I be asked to defend such a ridiculous idea?

That said: a mechanic whereby a warlord, by speaking inspiring words, can give a bonus to death saving throw, and/or allow a dying ally to act while making death saving throws, could be an interesting one.
How do unconscious (read: unconscious and dying, in many cases) people hear these inspiring words?
 
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That's in part because the different subclasses of bard, cleric, paladin, etc are designed to allow it to fill different roles and make different types of character. That's the key difference between subclasses.
But the difference between fighter subclasses is complexity. They're not designed to allow the fighter to fill different roles, but fill the same roles with different degrees of resource management.
I agree.

And the fighter can turn extra attacks into support through manuvers, pushing enemies to get them in the right area, knocking them prone, or granting allies attacks. And they can use their Action Surge to do things such as the Help action rather than making multiple attacks. So there's a lot already built into the class.
The fighter is diverse and more flexible than some other classes, like the rogue or barbarian.
Trading attacks for support is a possibility, though not certainty, to making a true support sub-class for the fighter.
Push means less without a grid.
Trip can be pretty good, or worthless dependent on initiative. The enemy is just as likely to stand back up as grant advantage.
Using action surge to help is worthless. Just let it be action surge -> more attacks -> more support. Say help cost you 1 attack.
And yes, fighters are more flexible then the rogue/barbarian. But still far short of any caster.


However, fighter's are already top dogs in the damage department. So you end up either doing lot's of damage, or something worth even more then lots of damage.
 

That is not the context in which we are conversing. We aren't talking about what a warlord can/should do. But rather about a claim that Aragorn was somehow being a warlord mechanically when certain scenes played out. That's a forced perspective. It's also not necessary. Nothing in the narrative of that story distinguishes his actions as anything more than a noble ranger roleplaying his character and the other individuals playing theirs.
I don't understand.

The LotR is a novel, written in a naturalistic style. It's not a documentation of the mechanical techniques used to produce a RPG session.

Your argument here is like saying that you couldn't possibly have a LotR-ish RPG in which spellcasting requires a die roll (qv Runequest, RM, BW, or indeed nearly any FRPG but D&D) because we never hear anything about Gandalf's player rolling dice when trying to open the doors of Moria or drive off the Nazgul.

Or like saying that morale rules have no place, because we never hear the narrator ("the GM") rolling dice to see if the orcs or the Nazgul or the balrog fall back.

How would a narration of an event in which a warlord inspires his/her ally to make a charge attack look, other than like the passage I cited? For that matter, how would bardic inspiration look, other than a narration like the one I cited upthread describing the men of Dol Amroth singing a lay?

Speaking of weak arguments: That's called a strawman.
You misunderstand. An argument can be weak or strong not in terms of its validity or soundness, but in terms of the strength of the premises it rests upon or the consequences that it entails. Showing that a class is not needed is, in this sense, a weaker argument than showing that a class is not possible: the fact that the argument against necessity is sound doesn't rule out as many other positions as would be ruled out had you shown that the class were not possible.

You tell me. You seem to be one of the people asking for a warlord to non-magically talk someone back from near death. Are you not? I certainly ain't. So why should I be asked to defend such a ridiculous idea?
Again, you seem to misunderstand. You are suggesting that this passage illustrates (i) Boromir having suffered much hit point loss, yet (ii) not being revived by an ally conjectured by me to be a warlord. I am saying that (i) is in doubt, because Boromir has many arrows shot into him, and - whatever exactly that amounts to in D&D - it is not simply hit point loss. Because hit point loss is something that can be recovered from in minutes and hours, but no human being recovers from being shot with arrows like that in minutes or hours, even if someone spends 6 seconds treating his/her wounds with a technologically mediaeval "healing kit".

So unless you are planning on abandoning the D&D damage and recovery model (eg you are going to say that hit points lost to arrow shots can't be recovered except via magic or very extensive healing times) you probably can't extrapolate from the example to D&D mechanical possibilities - unless you assume that, at the time Aragorn appears the death saves have already been failed and at that point the mortal nature of the arrow wounds is narrated by the referee.

How do unconscious (read: unconscious and dying, in many cases) people hear these inspiring words?
The same way that, like Boromir, they speak final words? That is to say, the mechanical state of being unconscious is not taken entirely literally. I mean, it's not as in the real world no one who is dying was ever able to hear anybody - as if being a dying person also entailed being a deaf person.

Here is another way into the topic: the dying person hears the words the same way that a sleeping person does, or that some comatose people do. The Sleep spell says that "each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake": presumably, then, unconscious people can (sometimes) feel themselves being shaken or slapped, so why can't they hear inspiring words? The sleep option of Eyebite similarly says that "The target falls unconscious. It wakes up if it takes any damage or if another creature uses its action to shake the sleeper awake"; the sleep option for Symbol has near identical language, while the text for a dragon's sleep gas says that the victim "fall unconscious for [X] minutes. This effect ends for a creature if the creature takes damage or someone uses an action to wake it."

These all seem to be exceptions to the default rule for unconsciousness that the creature "is unaware of its surroundings", which cause relatively little anxiety or confusion among the player base. I don't see why inspiring words can't be a similar exception.

EDIT: Here is what seems to me the most logical pathway to the Boromir death scene within the general framework of D&D hit point and death rules:

Boromir is pierced by the first arrow. This reduces him to 0 hp, at which point he is dying. (In some early editions he would be dead; those editions, with their mechanics, can't generate the death scene at all.)

Boromir has an ability that permits him to continue acting while dying (say, some version of the 1ASD&D cavalier and sohei abilities).

While in the dying state, Boromir is hit by further arrows. After the first one or two, any further are sufficient to lead to death (eg in AD&D they reduce him below -9 hp; in 5e they cause the death save tally to reach three).

In AD&D, if Boromir were rescued before dying he would require a week's rest, which is at least within the ballpark of plausibility for having multiple arrows penetrate him; in 5e it would be only 6 seconds treatment with a healing kit then a few hours rest to have him back on his feat, which seems quite unverisimilitudinous to me, but is an oddity of that edition.

This still leaves the dying words unaccounted for - both in AD&D and in later editions a character at zero (or fewer) hp, by the rules, can't speak - but perhaps this is just a case of Tolkien's poetic licence, preferring his fantasy to hew closer both to real life and to classic tropes than to the literal text of a rule book.
 
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pemerton, If you are arguing that 5e is unable to portray Boromir's death scene from The Fellowship of the Ring, I agree. It was why HP recovery from Hit Dice and full HP recovery from 8 hours of rest was a bad idea to include. They probably should have made it an optional rule.

I (and I know some others) house rule out the full HP recovery after 8 hours and require magic to heal such wounds.

But it is the default rule, so we have to accept that. And right now such things happen either "off screen", during down time (short and long rests), or are secondary abilities like Second Wind, that are not a character's primary shtick.

A Warlord class would take that mechanic and make it front and center. All kinds of reason can be given for why someone recovers fully after 8 hours of rest, including the use of "some kind of magic" that wasn't available during combat. But a Warlord is explicitly not magical. It forces a re-write of the narrative anytime a Warlord "heals" HP damage.
 

My feeling is that the rules need a character at 0 to be Unconscious to avoid arguments that would occur if they just said "Injured, Prone, and Dying or just Out of the Fight" but still able to give dying words or hear a healing speech. Because if you can do 'dying words' it opens the door to Casting Spells and crawling away and backstorying yourself dying powers.
 

Trading attacks for support is a possibility, though not certainty, to making a true support sub-class for the fighter.
So, the 1,000,000 gold piece question is: what is support?
Let's do a quick defining of terms here. What should the warlord (or a fighter) be doing to support their allies?
Not "what should a warlord be doing to be a warlord" but what are support options?
 
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[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]:

Since you keep going back to the Aragorn/LotR well, and brought up the validity of LotR in an RPG environment, were you aware there is a LotR TTRPG (there have been several over the years, actually)? Maybe you can find an official write-up of Aragorn, somewhere in one of those games, and point to the mechanical benefits his leadership grants to his allies? That would go a long way towards solidifying your assertions that Aragorn is a "warlord" (by D&D standards)...
 

So, the 1,000,000 gold piece question is: what is support?
Let's do a quick defining of terms here. What should the warlord (or a fighter) be doing to support their allies?
Not "what should a warlord be doing to be a warlord" but what are support options?
I threw up a few ideas in another thread.

1 Attack:
*Help action.
*An ally who can see and hear you gains THP equal to your Cha modifier + your proficiency bonus.
*An ally can use his reaction to move upto 5*Int or their speed (which ever is lower).
*Choose an ability such as wisdom. An ally gains +Int on saving throw using that ability until the start of it's next turn.
*An ally gains +Int to their AC against the next attack, or until the start of your next turn.
*An ally can use their reaction to make a stealth check.

2 Attacks:
*One ally who can see and hear you gain THP equal to your Cha modifier + your proficiency bonus.
*Ally can use their reaction to make an attack.
*All allies can use a reaction to move upto 5*Int or their speed (which ever is lower).
*Each time an enemy takes damage before the end of the next turn, increase the damage by Int.
*An ally is immune to fear until the start of your next turn.
*1 ally gains +Int on saving throw until the start of it's next turn.

3 Attacks
*
*An ally gains +Int to their AC until the start of your next turn.
*Help action to every creature in range.
*All allies can use their reaction to make a stealth check.
*An ally can use a reaction to move upto 5*Int or their speed (which ever is lower), and then make an attack.
*All allies gains +Int on saving throw until the start of it's next turn.

4 Attacks
*Upto Int modifier allies can make an attack as a reaction.
*All allies who can see and hear you gain THP equal to your Cha modifier + your proficiency bonus.
*An allies are immune to fear until the start of your next turn.
 

I threw up a few ideas in another thread.

1 Attack:
*Help action.
*An ally who can see and hear you gains THP equal to your Cha modifier + your proficiency bonus.
*An ally can use his reaction to move upto 5*Int or their speed (which ever is lower).
*Choose an ability such as wisdom. An ally gains +Int on saving throw using that ability until the start of it's next turn.
*An ally gains +Int to their AC against the next attack, or until the start of your next turn.
*An ally can use their reaction to make a stealth check.

2 Attacks:
*One ally who can see and hear you gain THP equal to your Cha modifier + your proficiency bonus.
*Ally can use their reaction to make an attack.
*All allies can use a reaction to move upto 5*Int or their speed (which ever is lower).
*Each time an enemy takes damage before the end of the next turn, increase the damage by Int.
*An ally is immune to fear until the start of your next turn.
*1 ally gains +Int on saving throw until the start of it's next turn.

3 Attacks
*
*An ally gains +Int to their AC until the start of your next turn.
*Help action to every creature in range.
*All allies can use their reaction to make a stealth check.
*An ally can use a reaction to move upto 5*Int or their speed (which ever is lower), and then make an attack.
*All allies gains +Int on saving throw until the start of it's next turn.

4 Attacks
*Upto Int modifier allies can make an attack as a reaction.
*All allies who can see and hear you gain THP equal to your Cha modifier + your proficiency bonus.
*An allies are immune to fear until the start of your next turn.

These are a lot of mechanics, but what is the Warlord actually doing to grant these bonuses?

Also, is there currently a caster that can do something like this every turn? That is to say, can a caster take an action every turn that supports the other characters while doing no damage himself?
 

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