Water, water everywhere, Nor any drop to drink

ChrisCarlson

First Post
The subclass of that name is a rogue. But a duelling battle master fighter built for mobility or parrying fills the archetype nicely.
Agreed. I've noticed some people get unduly hung up on class nomenclature. As if the class name(s) you wright down on your character sheet somehow dictate how you play the character. I find that very odd.

This is double true in the case of the warlord here. We had that very long poll thread showing that "warlord", although I believe it ended up the front-runner, turns out to have a lot of negative baggage associated with it.

Who cares what the bundle of mechanics are labeled. How does it feel in play? Does it fit the archetype you are going for? Does it serve the niche? If so, who cares what it's called.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
The subclass of that name is a rogue. But a duelling battle master fighter built for mobility or parrying fills the archetype nicely.
5e gives you multiple paths to many concepts. A swashbuckler or duelist concept could be a DEX-based BM or Swashbuckler Rogue, as you point out. A Bard or Bladesinger wouldn't be entirely out of character buckling some swash (nor have any trouble pulling it off), either, their supernatural abilities just aren't called for by the concept. It's not just concepts that never rated a full PH1 class before, either, most of the concepts typically associated with the classic classes included in 5e can be approached from a different angle and done with a different class + Background, and yet more ways if feats & MCing are used. A holy warrior could be a Paladin, or a Fighter with the Acolyte Background, or War Cleric with the Soldier Background, with Feats in play, that Fighter could add Magic Initiate or the Cleric Martial Adept, just cut to the chase and allow MCing into Fighter/Cleric - all those ways to go paladiny, doesn't mean you can't have an actual Paladin. A studious master of magic could be a Wizard, or a Bard or even Warlock or Sorcerer or EK or AT with the Sage background, or even a more 'theoretical' student of magic with the Sage background, Expertise in Arcana, and no actual spells, or just a touch from Magic Initiate. A 'priest of nature' could be a Druid, of course, or a Cleric with the right Domain, or an Acolyte Ranger. And on and on.

All of that neatly illustrates how far off base the OP was in suggesting that the odd Feat, Background, and/or sub-class obviates the need for a 5e version of the Warlord.
 

mellored

Legend
Agreed. I've noticed some people get unduly hung up on class nomenclature. As if the class name(s) you wright down on your character sheet somehow dictate how you play the character. I find that very odd.
I agree.

A class does not tell you how to play your character.
Or make other's respect your character. No matter how blessed you may be.
 


Hussar

Legend
The subclass of that name is a rogue. But a duelling battle master fighter built for mobility or parrying fills the archetype nicely.

No, it really, really doesn't. For EXACTLY the same reasons that it doesn't work for Warlord. The base fighter class contains ZERO content that says "Swashbuckler".

Again, go down the list: (and frankly I'm ignoring the post where you cut and paste my post to make your point because it's too hard to read)

But, look at what a base fighter gets:

d10 HP
Simple and Martial Weapons
All armour
Fighting Style
Action Surge
Extra Attack (+1-3)
Bonus Feats (3)
Indomitable

NOw, what there says swashbuckler? A swashbuckler should not have d10 HP - he's not meant to take a beating. All armour? Why? Do you envision your swashbuckler in plate mail? Fighting style - well, I suppose two weapon style kinda/sorta fits one style of swashbuckler. But, the rest of it? Why is my swashbuckler good with shields? Or good with bows? Action Surge? 1/short rest bonus action? Woo, nothing says swashbuckler like being able to be quick once every few hours. Extra Attacks? Maybe, I suppose I can see this. Weapons master and all that. Bonus feats? Considering most bonus feats have nothing to do with swashbuckling, it's pretty moot. Indomitable? Bwuh? That's nothing a swashbuckler should have at all.

Compare with the 5e rogue swashbuckler. Base class gives us the following:

d8 HP - perfect fit
Light Armor - perfect fit
Sneak Attack - Perfect fit
bonus Action - Perfect fit
Skill bonuses - Perfect fit.

Why on earth would you create a swashbuckler as a Battlemaster? The base rogue fits every swashbuckler requirement to a "T". Add in some sub-class goodies to further tailor to the archetype and we're good to go. And, oh look, it worked perfectly well. We've got a swashbuckler rogue sub-class that works very well. No squinting or ignoring large swaths of a class required.

It's like people look at Totem Barbarians and try telling other people that Druids aren't required in the game. After all Totem Barbarians can talk to animals, why do we need Druids. We got the animal themed powers, talking to animals, it's a Druid, so, people who like druids should just sit down and shut up and play Totem Barbarians. And then acting in wide eyed bafflement when people start asking to play actual druids. Actually, worse than that, trolling every single discussion to create a druid class by loudly proclaiming that everything you need to create a Druid is already in the game and anyone who wants an actual Druid class is just a munchkin power gamer who doesn't understand D&D and should go back to playing another edition and stop trying to bring things into 5e that don't belong.

It's ludicrous.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
No, it really, really doesn't. For EXACTLY the same reasons that it doesn't work for Warlord. The base fighter class contains ZERO content that says "Swashbuckler".
Wait, what? Swashbuckler, to me at least, says a skillful swordsman. Dueling and TWF both back that up. So does Extra Attack. So, tangentially, do ASI's if feats are available. So do the BM's maneuvers if you go with that sub-class. The concept also says 'daring do,' which Action Surge, d10 HD, and Second Wind all at least help with, and, for once, even the Champion's 'Remarkable' Athlete doesn't seem entirely irrelevant.

Again, go down the list: (and frankly I'm ignoring the post where you cut and paste my post to make your point because it's too hard to read)

But, look at what a base fighter gets:

d10 HP
Simple and Martial Weapons
All armour
Fighting Style
Action Surge
Extra Attack (+1-3)
Bonus Feats (3)
Indomitable

NOw, what there says swashbuckler? A swashbuckler should not have d10 HP - he's not meant to take a beating.
hps represent avoiding physical damage by the skin of your teeth, too. The Swashbuckler is going to all but live in melee.
All armour? Why?
It's superfluous. In 5e, it doesn't matter if you have heavy armor proficiency - if you go high-DEX and light weapons, you're in good shape. Where armor proficiency might make a difference is if you don't have the best light (if going DEX) or heavy (if going STR) armors on your list.

Fighting style - well, I suppose two weapon style kinda/sorta fits one style of swashbuckler. But, the rest of it? Why is my swashbuckler good with shields? Or good with bows?
He's not, you pick the one (or two if Champion) style(s) that fit the concept.
Action Surge? 1/short rest bonus action? Woo, nothing says swashbuckler like being able to be quick once every few hours.
it's better than never being able to be quick.
Extra Attacks? Maybe, I suppose I can see this. Weapons master and all that.
A perfect fit for the lightning-fast rapier-wielding duelist. And, it's the Fighter's single most potent, most significant class feature.
Bonus feats? Considering most bonus feats have nothing to do with swashbuckling, it's pretty moot.
And feats may not even be available. Swashbucklers - like most genre heroes - tend to be pretty all-round gifted, though, so a couple more +2's'd be welcome.

Indomitable? Bwuh? That's nothing a swashbuckler should have at all.
Not as emblematic as being great with a rapier, no. But really the only thing that's less than a good fit and not a matter of choosing something else that is.

Compare with the 5e rogue swashbuckler. Base class gives us the following:

d8 HP - perfect fit
d10'd be better if you're going to melee a lot, but it's OK. Really, no one's that hard up for hps in 5e that 1/level on average is huge either way.
Light Armor - perfect fit
Even light armor's a little off the classic Three Musketeer's look, but by D&D standards, sure.
Sneak Attack - Perfect fit
Not quite, perfect, no. Swashbucklers are really into dueling, where getting advantage isn't the sure thing it can be for a Rogue working with teammates.
bonus Action - Perfect fit
Nice for specific bits of daring-do, yes, not so good for going to town on the Six Fingered Man.
Skill bonuses - Perfect fit.
The fighter is sadly lacking in skills compare to the Rogue, and the Swashbuckler does quite a bit of skillful stuff, so yeah,

Why on earth would you create a swashbuckler as a Battlemaster?
Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killa my father, prepare to die.

The base rogue fits every swashbuckler requirement to a "T". Add in some sub-class goodies to further tailor to the archetype and we're good to go. And, oh look, it worked perfectly well. We've got a swashbuckler rogue sub-class that works very well. No squinting or ignoring large swaths of a class required.
We've got both. That a fighter could cover some, less skill-focused, more melee-focused swashbuckler concepts was never a reason not to do the Rogue archetype, that shaded towards the opposite emphasis.

At bottom, the Swashbuckler is a character who crosses swords with the bad guy and wins. In D&D, that's modeled with melee DPR, and it's a big part the classes that get it.
The fighter and rogue both fit the bill. If you're not all about dat damage, neither of those classes are such a good fit.

It's like people look at Totem Barbarians and try telling other people that Druids aren't required in the game. After all Totem Barbarians can talk to animals, why do we need Druids. We got the animal themed powers, talking to animals, it's a Druid, so, people who like druids should just sit down and shut up and play Totem Barbarians. And then acting in wide eyed bafflement when people start asking to play actual druids. Actually, worse than that, trolling every single discussion to create a druid class by loudly proclaiming that everything you need to create a Druid is already in the game and anyone who wants an actual Druid class is just a munchkin power gamer who doesn't understand D&D and should go back to playing another edition and stop trying to bring things into 5e that don't belong.

It's ludicrous.
It is. It misses how 5e gives you multiple paths to similar concepts, and asserts that one path to one concept in the ballpark obviates all others. It is ludicrous, but you don't have to pretend a DEX-based fighter can't buckle some swash to make that point. Quite the contrary.
 
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pemerton

Legend
You don't need to define what a martial character is capable of because it's apparent: you can do what is reasonably physically possible based on a lifetime of living in the real world.
In theory, any physical task should be possible with a decent ability check. If the fighter gains an ability that lets them stand up quickly with an Acrobatics check, that means a DM cannot make a ruling to let a player do that. It's taking away a potential option from everyone else. It's not really granting more options, it's reducing them.
If you actually look at what sort of mechanical features distinguish (say) a fighter from (say) a rogue, they don't connect to your claim here.

The fighter and the rogue can both run, jump, fight, throw, etc. The things that distinguish them don't have any particular meaning in the fiction, but only in the minutiae of D&D mechanics: fighters get action economy buffs (extra attacks, action surge) and buffs to the game's "resilience" subsystems (second wind, indomitable) while rogues get damage buffs (sneak attack) and buffs to the games "did I succeed at that non-combat effort" subsystem (expertise) plus a specialised action economy buff (cunning action).

You can give a warlord similar sorts of mechanical tricks - buffing the die rolls or the action economy or the hit points of allies, for instance - without intruding on any PC's in-fiction capabilities.

Action Surge? Bonus Feats? Indomitable? Why? None of that applies to a swashbuckler at all. Even the third and fourth attacks from being a fighter in no way apply.
Why not? Swashbucklers are actually pretty well known for their dash and flair, which action surge and indomitable capture quite well. (Bonus feats maybe not so much, depending on what is on offer.)

I also agree with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] that the post-AD&D, sneak attack/skirmisher rogue also provides a perfectly good vehicle for a less grim, more wise-cracking swashbuckler.
 

Sadras

Legend
Compare with the 5e rogue swashbuckler. Base class gives us the following:

d8 HP - perfect fit
Light Armor - perfect fit
Sneak Attack - Perfect fit
bonus Action - Perfect fit
Skill bonuses - Perfect fit.

Let us be fair @Hussar. Why did you purposefully leave these class features out?

Thieves Cant
Expertise
Evasion
Reliable Talent
Blindsense
Slippery Mind

I'm with [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION], 5e and even 4e and 3.x (to some degree with their Feat Trees) allow for multiple pathways to arrive to your destination. Add to that a relaxed DM and everyone is happy :)
 
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Hussar

Legend
Tony Vargas said:
Not quite, perfect, no. Swashbucklers are really into dueling, where getting advantage isn't the sure thing it can be for a Rogue working with teammates.


Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...re-Nor-any-drop-to-drink/page56#ixzz42XcksgXD

And, look, the Swashbuckler sub-class allows swashbucklers to get sneak attack against lone targets. Almost like they knew what they were doing.

Let us be fair @Hussar. Why did you purposefully leave these class features out?

To be honest, I wasn't providing an exhaustive list because the big schtick items fit so well. But, okay, I'll play.

Thieves Cant

Ok, that's fair. Doesn't fit.

Expertise

Swashbucklers are supposed to be skilled right? Social skills, physical skills. Swinging from chandeliers and sweet talking fair maidens? How is this not a perfect fit?


Light armoured, nimble combatant that can survive explosions. Sounds like a Musketeer to me.

Reliable Talent

See Expertise

Blindsense

Meh, this one could go either way. Not particularly fitting, but, not not fitting either.

Slippery Mind

Fair enough.

I'm with [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION], 5e and even 4e and 3.x (to some degree with their Feat Trees) allow for multiple pathways to arrive to your destination. Add to that a relaxed DM and everyone is happy :)

Oh sure. I agree with that too. But, the original argument was that Swashbucklers are best defined by fighters. They aren't. Not in 5e. The rogue fits the archetype far, far better. Fighter can work, if you're careful and stay on task, but, rogue is a much better fit.

Actually, the original argument is basically that anything that isn't magical and swings a sword is a fighter. Which is not true. The Samurai was mentioned. Samurai isn't even a sub-class, it's a fighter with a Noble Background. Everything that a Samurai is, is covered. Heavy armored sword and bow warrior on a horse. Yup, that's a fighter. Some concepts do fit rather well with fighter, that's true.

Warlords aren't one of them. A fighter's basic chassis doesn't fit with a warlord at all. Wrong HD, wrong proficiencies, and all of a fighter's base abilities are about making the fighter a better single combatant. Heck, put it this way - fighters are based on Str/Dex with a secondary in Con, right? Warlords are based on Int/Cha with a secondary in Str. They are completely different classes. At best, a Battlemaster is to a Warlord as an Eldritch Knight is to a Wizard.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Why leave these class features out?

Thieves Cant
Probably not a swashbuckler thing.
Expertise
Very much a swashbuckler thing. Crazy stunts? You bet.
Evasion
Reliable Talent
Blindsense
Also sound good, maybe a bit of a stretch depending on the specific concept.
Slippery Mind
Better fit than indomitable, perhaps.

At the same time, Action Surge & Extra Attack are very good fits, as well.


Oh sure. I agree with that too. But, the original argument was that Swashbucklers are best defined by fighters. They aren't. Not in 5e. The rogue fits the archetype far, far better. Fighter can work, if you're careful and stay on task, but, rogue is a much better fit.
They're both good fits, but partial fits.

It's not unusual that heroic archetypes and tropes across the board tend to, even in the instance of a single individual, do more than the either the Fighter or Rogue class, alone, can model in D&D. MCing is one obvious solution, but it does dilute those abilities.
 
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