We are losing ambidexterity?

[Quidam]

So you're saying that a thrown dagger should:

• Use STR bonus to hit
• Not provoke an AoO when thrown
• Be ineligible for Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, and all the other ranged feats
• Only be able to attack within 5 feet (unless the weilder has reach)

Er...right.

J

I think what's being said is that a melee weapon is being used to make a ranged attack. So all the things you mentioned apply to ranged attacks and qualify, but things that are based on the type of weapon would apply as well.

I'm not stating a stance on this issue as I can kind of see it going either way, but I think this is more what's meant.

 

[Voadam]

Looking at it again, the quote could be that there are two categories of ranged weapons

1 thrown weapons

2 projectile weapons which are not effective in melee.

as opposed to

1 thrown weapons which are not effective in melee (javelins, etc.)

2 projectile weapons which are not effective in melee.

From the srd.

"Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee."

The first interpretation has overlapping melee and ranged weapons for thrown weapons.

The second has distinct division between the two groups of weapons.

The former looks more reasonable in context, but the second is arguable.

 

[kreynolds]

Note that two-weapon fighting is not required for this at all.

If your attacks were at (for example) +15/+10/+5, you could:

a) attack with the rapier at +15
b) throw the dagger at +10
c) attack with the rapier again at +5.

You only need to use Two Weapon Fighting if you want an extra attack from your melee weapon.

AFAIK, This isn't entirely accurate. If you wanted to throw a dagger after your first attack, you would have to sheath your rapier as a free action and draw a dagger as a free action, or drop your rapier and draw a dagger as a free action, then throw. If you choose not to drop or stow away your rapier, you must use your other hand to throw the dagger. If you use your other hand at the same time you use your primary hand, you are now attacking with two weapons, and you suffer the penalties appropriate for doing so.

 

[RigaMortus2]

TWF is melee only. See the PHB, under Crossbows:

"A Medium-size or larger character can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a -4 penalty. A Medium-size or larger character can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand at a -6 penalty, plus the usual -4 penalty for the off-hand attack (-6 primary hand/-10 off hand). The Two-Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce these penalties because it represents skill with melee weapons, not ranged weapons. The Ambidexterity feat lets someone avoid the -4 off-hand penalty (-6 primary hand/-6 off hand)."

I know. Funny place to hide that rule.

As a complete aside, "stewardesses" is the longest word touch-typed solely with the left hand on a QWERTY keyboard.

Greg "Not really ambidextrous" Oi

Actually, I was answering this question:

Originally posted by DocMoriartty

If we lose ambidexterity then what happens if my 1st level rogue wants to throw a dagger with each hand at the same time?

This was in reference to losing ambi in 3.5. So my answer was what I *thought* the 3.5 rules might be. Since we don't have all the info on TWF and Ambi in 3.5 (other than Ambi is incorporated in TWF), that was what I was basing my answer off of. So the quote hidden under the Heavy Crossbow description doesn't apply as that is a 3.0 rule and we don't know if it will be in 3.5 or not (maybe it will, maybe it won't)...

 

[Voadam]

3.5 is supposed to have clearer combat descriptions.

Hopefully all the FAQ info will be included, I'm still mad that they have errata info in the FAQ as opposed to the errata sheet.

 

[RigaMortus2]

If you look at the wording of Two Weapon Fighting, you should note the word 'Wielded'. Wielding a weapon implies a sturdy grip upon said weapon.

Let's not make up our own definitions and pretend they are official DnD terminology.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

I don't think I would apply the penalty for attack with 2 weapons, but I would apply the penalty for attacking with your off hand.

--DeLurking Spikey

 

[Datt]

How the heck do people think that RS and TWF are the same thing? They are clearly not. RS lets you throw an extra dagger, shoot an extra arrow, etc. TWF reduces the penatly for fighting with both hands. You don't have to have RS to throw two daggers in one round. Just throw one with your main and one with your off.

 

[drnuncheon]

AFAIK, This isn't entirely accurate. If you wanted to throw a dagger after your first attack, you would have to sheath your rapier as a free action and draw a dagger as a free action, or drop your rapier and draw a dagger as a free action, then throw. If you choose not to drop or stow away your rapier, you must use your other hand to throw the dagger. If you use your other hand at the same time you use your primary hand, you are now attacking with two weapons, and you suffer the penalties appropriate for doing so.

Sheathing is an MEA, actually.

Past that, I disagree with you. You are not getting the benefit (that is to say, an extra attack), therefore, you do not take the penalty.

Here's the quote from the SRD:

If a normal character (i.e. a character without the multiattack and/or multidexterity feats) wields a second weapon (fights two handed), that character can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard, however, and the character suffers a -6 penalty for regular attacks with the first hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with a other hand.

So...you can take an extra attack, but you do not have to. The rest of it hinges on how you interpret "fighting in this way" - I believe it is meant to mean "fighting in such a way that you get an extra attack with your second weapon".

Further evidence:

Character has three attacks and Ambidexterity. He has a longsword in his right hand, and nothing in his left. He attacks with the longsword once. Then, he uses a free action to switch hands. He attacks with the longsword in his left hand, uses a free action to switch it back, and attacks with the right hand. Does he take the two-weapon fighting penalty? Of course not. He's only using one weapon.

What about Mr. Quick-Draw? He attacks once, drops his weapon, draw another, and attacks again. Does he take the two-weapon fighting penalty? Of course not. He's fighting with two weapons, but he's only using one weapon at a time.

So, when you think about it, is the dagger throwing rapier wielder. He's just changing which single weapon he's using during the round - the same as someone who is swapping hands or using quickdraw.

If you don't allow this, then you run into the ridiculous situation where someone (with quickdraw) could attack with a rapier, drop it, draw a dagger, throw it, then draw a second rapier...and do it all with no penalty...while the guy with a rapier in one hand and a dagger in the other couldn't do the same.

J

 

[kreynolds]

You don't have to have RS to throw two daggers in one round. Just throw one with your main and one with your off.

I don't think anyone said you couldn't. You can indeed throw two daggers in one round using both your primary hand and off-hand, but if you do, TWF does not reduce the penalties for fighting with two weapons. RS merely lets you throw one more dagger, using only one hand during the round, at a slightly stiffer penalty (-7) than the normal (-5) for each successive attack.