D&D 5E We Would Hate A BG3 Campaign

[Zardnaar]

When I ran the 3E module Bastion of Broken Souls, using Rolemaster as my system and ignoring the repeated advice that the NPCs won't speak and will only attack, one of the PCs persuaded an angel to allow herself to be killed by him (because she was the living gate to the demi-plane where a god had been exiled, and he persuaded her that the fate of the world depended on him speaking to the exiled god).

I've never had eating alive!

I've seen similar mechanics on 3.5 adventure. DC was functionally impossible and each task you did lowered it by 5.

Eating yourself wasnt an option but similar idea.

 

[Maxperson]

Because obviously if they actually had a different opinion of it than you they must be ignorant? Come now Max. You're allowed to like one version more than another, of course, but when you start telling me that no true Scottsman could possibly like 4e DS, well...

Stop assuming man. I wasn't making a judgment, just wondering what the ratio was. Genuinely curious.

 

[mamba]

Same with 4E FR. They attempted to kitchen sink it

I know nothing about what they did, but that does not sound like a change

 

[cbwjm]

Me: "I'm hosting a luau."
Friend: "I'm sorry, I can't eat that. Can I bring something else?"
Me: "I'm sorry, but the menu is fixed. If you brought something, it would ruin the internal consistency of the whole thing. Really destroy the mood and theme."

This is why your whole analogy breaks down, it's not equivalent to an RPG with a restricted amount of races because no one is going to say "No, you can't bring that." More than likely all of the people you mentioned would be able to find something thing can eat and drink at a luau anyway.

 

[Mecheon]

It's probably dwarfed by other editions functionally dead.

Athas.org doesn't support 4E in any serious way the Facebook group polling virtually no one's playing it.
It's basically 2E and 3.5 with a bit of 5E.

So yeah it seems 4E Dark Sun is functionally dead. So a bit disingenuous claiming its changes are good and popular when it gas virtually no legacy.

Maybe people would have cared if it hadn't made the changes it did. Same with 4E FR. They attempted to kitchen sink it and it's a prine example of why you don't do that to established lore.

Not the only one we see the process repeat.

I'd argue Athas.org probably isn't an unbiased source per those high numbers of 2E which, is a bit of a Spiders Georg situation going on, as outside of that, that is absolutely not the numbers you'd be seeing for 2E games elsewhere

5E Athas didn't kitchen sink it, though. The additions were Eladrin who were an easy enough fit basically filling the role of djinn or the like, mysterious people out in the desert who have portals to a strange realm where life can sort of thrive whihch, y'know, hardly counters anything and just fits in the general weird ancient spirits ala Lalali-Puy's deal. Tieflings didn't have anything stated as an origin except dark powers and like, there's that much weird magic going on its just 'whatever'. Goliaths are half giants which, yeah, Goliaths have been half giants ever since Races of Stone introduced them and just gave them survivalist stuff rather than psionics. The closest thing you get to a retcon is Dray wandering but like, all it does is go 'Yeah Dregoth started working on them before he got nuked', and given 2E mentioned how 1st gen Dray weren't liked by Dregoth at all and didn't have the surface dweller hate, makes sense to me they'd head out and, y'know, look for somewhere to live that isn't a lava filled cave. Its not a kitchen sink in the slightest. Orcs aren't back (even though orcs are just mutated into something else on Athas let's be honest), gnomes aren't back. It doesn't even bring back all of the old races, Pterran are still absent and the only new two are Eladrin (who fit in with established lore on fey existing and are a logical conclusion of 'survivors try to make a halmet to survive the various wars') and Tieflings (who are an easy explanation given how much Athas just has weird magic, some mutant coming in from the desert is what the setting is made for)

Did people's opinions change on the Prism Pentad or something while I wasn't looking? Do we really want to go back to the surfing lizardmen? 4E Athas was 4E's most popular revamp of a setting

 

[CreamCloud0]

This is why your whole analogy breaks down, it's not equivalent to an RPG with a restricted amount of races because no one is going to say "No, you can't bring that." More than likely all of the people you mentioned would be able to find something thing can eat and drink at a luau anyway.

I mean it sort of is what some of us are saying “hey, I’m doing a Luau and i want it to be really authentic, I've prepared an array of apropriate foods for the evening and I’ll try help you find something you like in those available so I’d appreciate it if you don’t bring the tex-mex burrito platter as I feel it doesn’t fit the vibes, but if you absolutely 100% cannot live without your burritoes for one party i think i'd rather you didn't attend this one”

edit: but yes, at the same time not being able to eat X or Y because of medical or religious reasons is in no way equal to being told you cant play X or Y species or class in a curated game

 

[Zardnaar]

I'd argue Athas.org probably isn't an unbiased source per those high numbers of 2E which, is a bit of a Spiders Georg situation going on, as outside of that, that is absolutely not the numbers you'd be seeing for 2E games elsewhere

5E Athas didn't kitchen sink it, though. The additions were Eladrin who were an easy enough fit basically filling the role of djinn or the like, mysterious people out in the desert who have portals to a strange realm where life can sort of thrive whihch, y'know, hardly counters anything and just fits in the general weird ancient spirits ala Lalali-Puy's deal. Tieflings didn't have anything stated as an origin except dark powers and like, there's that much weird magic going on its just 'whatever'. Goliaths are half giants which, yeah, Goliaths have been half giants ever since Races of Stone introduced them and just gave them survivalist stuff rather than psionics. The closest thing you get to a retcon is Dray wandering but like, all it does is go 'Yeah Dregoth started working on them before he got nuked', and given 2E mentioned how 1st gen Dray weren't liked by Dregoth at all and didn't have the surface dweller hate, makes sense to me they'd head out and, y'know, look for somewhere to live that isn't a lava filled cave. Its not a kitchen sink in the slightest. Orcs aren't back (even though orcs are just mutated into something else on Athas let's be honest), gnomes aren't back. It doesn't even bring back all of the old races, Pterran are still absent and the only new two are Eladrin (who fit in with established lore on fey existing and are a logical conclusion of 'survivors try to make a halmet to survive the various wars') and Tieflings (who are an easy explanation given how much Athas just has weird magic, some mutant coming in from the desert is what the setting is made for)

Did people's opinions change on the Prism Pentad or something while I wasn't looking? Do we really want to go back to the surfing lizardmen? 4E Athas was 4E's most popular revamp of a setting

Surfing lizardmen has been explained away. It was in TSRs dying days.

I don't use much for Darksun after 1993. The original concept was great run into the ground by freelancers.

Athas doesn't need Djinn or anything like it. Its not Arabian Nights.

its not just Athas.org the Darksun facebook group, Reddit group basically all the najor groups right there.

It's the prime example why things should be excluded as all the add on watered down the setting. That and TSR rampant metaplot.

Stupid ideas that should have seen the light of day.

Warlocks as Templars. Setting where Arcane magic destroys the environment...... A few pet defilers sure. Entire group of them erm no.

Teleporting Elves. See magic.

Reskining phb Dragonborn as Dray lol.

Dray in general just after Kalaks death.

Tieflings full stop. Genasi would name more sense.

Goliaths lol.

Eliminating clerics (erm derp....)

So yeah it was about shoehorning in 4Eisms regardless. Consequences are no one really cares now. They didn't do it organically it was square peg round hole.

A bit more care they could have slotted in some things and respected the setting. Eg variant Dragonborn more in line with the Dray original presentation.

If I was doing Darksun and adding new stuff I would look at what makes sense at least. Eg Genasi, Barbarians, Sorcerers (with Athasian origin, subject to defilng rules as well).

But no shoehorn in Tieflings. Settings almost screaming out for Genasi.

 

[ezo]

If I had kids, I'd make them teach me the "right way" to play D&D.
I used to know, but I think I've forgotten.

If I could meet myself from 20-30 years ago, I could teach myself the "right way" to play D&D.

Ahh, gotta love the catch-22. It's straight up "you must have 10 years experience in the field to get an entry level job in the field," just applied to a D&D race. It's not as old as Tolkien, so it couldn't possibly have as many examples as Tolkien's work has generated, so it won't be allowed, meaning it won't get more new examples.

Self-perpetuating exclusion.

Not at all. You brought up an example of a well-establish race in a setting being removed, and I showed how dragonborn are not on the same level. Now, if your example was removing a well-establish race, such as the Tolkien races (which D&D is founded on for the most part), then you would be making a point.

That's all.

You're just finally noticing that that style of DMing is not well-liked by a lot of players.

Perhaps in your experience? Not in mine.

Turns out the "my way or the highway" attitude eventually starts seeing more than a few people choose the highway. Shocking!

As I said upthread... the door is over there.

Now? You will take only what is hard-line traditional and like it. Do not question the wisdom of the ancients. Know your place, player. Be thankful you get any game at all.

Thankfully, the pendulum has begun to swing back the other way.

"Hey everyone. I was thinking of having some friends over to throw a huge Hawaiian luau party. Now I know Mary is a vegan, Walid is Muslim, Harold is Jewish and Cynthia has allergy to pineapple, so I guess you guys just don't come? The rest of you, come on over to par-tay!"

Except there are plently of type of foot at such a party that those people could eat. It doesn't mean I am going to cater to everyone's desires. Those choices are things those people would be aware of.

This is why your whole analogy breaks down, it's not equivalent to an RPG with a restricted amount of races because no one is going to say "No, you can't bring that." More than likely all of the people you mentioned would be able to find something thing can eat and drink at a luau anyway.

Exactly.

It reminds me of the episode of the Office where Jim attempts to raise morale by throwing a birthday party for the person in whose birthday is next (Meredith) and then insists on getting a mint-chocolate chip ice cream cake because that's what HE likes (and Meredith is lactose intolerant). Likewise, a DM who doesn't consider their player's preferences is just ordering ice cream cake for themselves.

Except this isn't a game just for the players, it is for me as well.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Um, to get off my hobby horse for a second, World of Warcraft most definitely has dwarves?

My apologies. I meant halflings. Which don't exist in TES, WoW, or GW1/2. They do exist in FFXIV (in part because Final Fantasy blatantly steals from D&D, it literally has mindflayers and beholders.)

Dwarves "exist" in FFXIV as a variant of halflings; they used to exist in the ancient past of TES, as a (very very weird) variant of elves; and technically still exist as non-playable stone-people in GW2 whose civilization has been (essentially) dead for thousands of years.

Elves don't exist in GW1/2, and the closest equivalent is...wait for it...sentient fruit,* who are specifically so young as a race that they don't even truly have a proper understanding of death yet. It's straight-up a plot point for them that Riannoc, one of the Firstborn, was also the first of their race to die. They don't even know if they die of old age yet, because none of them are old enough to have found out! They're about as un-Tolkienesque as you can get while still aesthetically pinging the "elf" vibes.

Point being, even the allegedly "always there" races are not always there. Only humans come close to meeting that standard...and even they aren't guaranteed.

*I am being somewhat facetious, but properly speaking, sylvari are born from flower-pods, so they are technically sentient fruit.

I suppose it depends on how many of your friends this is in your strawman.

It's not a strawman. It's quite a reasonable interpretation. Because, guess what, I actually have Jewish, Muslim, and vegan friends, and more than a few friends who have unusual allergies or bad food reactions. (One example, the person who plays the bard in my Dungeon World game has a bad food reaction to bell pepper: it causes mouth bleeding.)

Of course, none of us could actually meet up for a dinner party, since none of those friends lives within even 300 miles of me, let alone close enough to just plan a meetup with. But the point stands: this "artistic vision" is rather exclusionary, not just "setting limits" but outright forbidding quite a few popular things. As I said previously, turns out "my way or the highway" ultimatums tend to wear thin over time. People respond rather more positively to sincere, good-faith discussion and efforts to find effective solutions that satisfy all parties, not just one party insistently enforcing their way on everyone else.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Not at all. You brought up an example of a well-establish race in a setting being removed, and I showed how dragonborn are not on the same level. Now, if your example was removing a well-establish race, such as the Tolkien races (which D&D is founded on for the most part), then you would be making a point.

That's all.

That is still the exact same catch-22. Nothing can ever be on that level, because Tolkien died over fifty years ago. The standard is unfair from the outset: only those things that are already old are allowed, because being old is required for being already established, and nothing that isn't old is allowed to become established, so nothing new will ever be allowed in. Catch-22. You must have fifty years' establishment before you can become established.

Perhaps in your experience? Not in mine.

I mean...we literally had someone in this thread saying that "Excluding stuff, for whatever reason, is rapidly becoming socially unacceptable." Perhaps that alleged social unacceptability is, in fact, the chickens coming home to roost.

As I said upthread... the door is over there.

Is this supposed to be funny? Because I can promsie you it isn't.

Except there are plently of type of foot at such a party that those people could eat. It doesn't mean I am going to cater to everyone's desires. Those choices are things those people would be aware of.

The vegan and Muslim/Jewish examples are rather more pointed than you give credit for. The traditional dishes at a luau involve pig. None of those three people can eat pig--not because they are physically incapable, but because it is a behavior they refuse to engage in for highly personal reasons. The examples were chosen very specifically for that reason.

"Oh, you can have a couple appetizers" is hardly inclusion.

Except this isn't a game just for the players, it is for me as well.

The way you and others act, it's a game just for the DM. The players are simply there at the DM's concession, a gracious dispensation from on high that can and will be revoked without notice should the player slip up.