Weapon Damage Questions

[Obryn]

See, that still doesn't seem right to me. This is all Answer #11 really says:

Weapon or feat it says...

That's not really all it says.

11. Which dice do I maximize when scoring a critical hit?
Only the dice you would normally roll to calculate damage are maximized. If another bonus (like from a weapon or feat) causes you to roll extra damage dice when scoring a critical hit, those dice are rolled as normal.

It's not "causes you to roll extra damage dice." It's "causes you to roll extra damage dice when scoring a critical hit."

-O

 

[Dragonblade]

The rule is "anything you'd be rolling on a normal hit is maximized, but anything you only roll on critical hits you roll." So Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry get maximized, but the bonus dice from High Crit or from a magic weapon do not get maximized.

This is correct. Hunter's quarry, sneak attack damage, curse damage, etc. are maximized on a crit.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Dragonblade is clearly correct, as is WotC customer service. READ the section on page 278 carefully. It is clear as day. ALL damage you would normally do with the ATTACK, not 'the weapon' is maximized. So if the attack is using HQ or WC or SA (etc) those dice are part of the NORMAL DAMAGE of the attack, and thus they ARE maximized.

The next section 'Extra Damage:' then makes this doubly clear by saying that any damage done ONLY on a crit is then rolled. This would be magic weapon crit dice or high crit weapon dice, etc.

This is why critical hits are so nasty, and especially ultra nasty when you start using powers that give you things like 3[W] or some of the barb ones that you can hit with for 6[W] or more.

Crits are just heavy duty in 4e. You dish one out and your enemy is going to really feel it, and usually go down if you just unloaded a daily on him. OTOH monsters are a lot less likely to be dishing out tons of dice of damage and thus a crit by a monster will hurt, but chances are you'll live (with a little love from your friendly neighborhood healer or a second wind).

 

[fissionessence]

Dragonblade is clearly correct, as is WotC customer service. READ the section on page 278 carefully. It is clear as day. ALL damage you would normally do with the ATTACK, not 'the weapon' is maximized. So if the attack is using HQ or WC or SA (etc) those dice are part of the NORMAL DAMAGE of the attack, and thus they ARE maximized.

The reason it doesn't specify weapon damage is that not all attacks that could crit involve weapons . . . for example, an attack from any warlock, wizard, etc. I don't feel that your reading is 'clear as all day'.

I'm much less convinced of my original standpoint and more willing to consider the alternative given the potentially strong arguments, but I'm now floating in the middle of the issue, and I'm still likely to rule in my games that striker bonuses are rolled on a crit until I find evidence I find incontrovertible.

This is why critical hits are so nasty, and especially ultra nasty when you start using powers that give you things like 3[W] or some of the barb ones that you can hit with for 6[W] or more.

Crits are just heavy duty in 4e. You dish one out and your enemy is going to really feel it, and usually go down if you just unloaded a daily on him. OTOH monsters are a lot less likely to be dishing out tons of dice of damage and thus a crit by a monster will hurt, but chances are you'll live (with a little love from your friendly neighborhood healer or a second wind).

I agree that critical hits are very nasty; I think this is true with either ruling for the issue in question. The difference is how much more powerful a striker becomes with critical hits. Honestly, other classes' crits would almost suck compared to a striker's if this is truly the correct ruling.

~ fissionessence

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbdulAlhazred
Dragonblade is clearly correct, as is WotC customer service. READ the section on page 278 carefully. It is clear as day. ALL damage you would normally do with the ATTACK, not 'the weapon' is maximized. So if the attack is using HQ or WC or SA (etc) those dice are part of the NORMAL DAMAGE of the attack, and thus they ARE maximized.

The reason it doesn't specify weapon damage is that not all attacks that could crit involve weapons . . . for example, an attack from any warlock, wizard, etc. I don't feel that your reading is 'clear as all day'.

I still don't see how it could be ANY more clearly written, lol.

Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage.

The max damage a rogue could do with an SA would be 1[W]+2d6 (it could be more, but this would be the basic case). This damage is maximized. No ifs ands or buts about it, thats what the rule says. If they meant 'maximum damage for the weapon you used' then they would have said that. It says attack because it means attack. You are correct of course when you say that it applies to non-weapon attacks, but they still could have worded it clearly if they meant something else.

Of course you can run it however you want, and maybe it will work better for you, but I don't think strikers are overpowered. Strikers have pretty much nothing else they do except dish out damage. That's a pretty basic function in the game, so being good at it IS powerful, but all the other roles can do good damage as well, plus they have other very significant benefits.

When I started running 4e last fall I had this feeling that the striker damage of rangers and rogues might start to get out of line if you aggressively maxed your character and piled things on, but after running a whole bunch of encounters over the past 6 months I've changed my mind. The classes are remarkably well balanced as written. I don't think you'll critically nerf anyone by doing a bit less crit damage, but it will likely tend to drag some fights out a bit longer than they need to go.

 

[fissionessence]

I still don't see how it could be ANY more clearly written, lol.

It would be more clear if it said "(this includes additional damage from things like Sneak Attack, Warlock's Curse, etc.)".

No ifs ands or buts about it, thats what the rule says. If they meant 'maximum damage for the weapon you used' then they would have said that. It says attack because it means attack.

I don't feel that your reading of the rule is as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. While it's plausible that the writer of the rule expected us to assume he was including striker bonuses, IMO it's equally plausible that he simply forgot to consider them when writing the rule in question.

Of course you can run it however you want, and maybe it will work better for you, but I don't think strikers are overpowered.

I'd rather run the rules as intended, but until I feel I know exactly what those intended rules are, I have to rely on my interpretation of what is intended. I'm not really 'worried' about maxing striker damage, but I'm also not inclined to unintentionally give out 'free stuff' to my players. Now, if your reading is correct (and it may be), then I'm actually depriving my players of stuff they should have, but I'd rather err on the side of running my games consistently (that is, not changing anything until I know for sure). Also, in the game where I'm not a DM, I play a warlock, so I'm definitely not averse to the potential for max curse damage

~

 

[Kalbutt]

The expression of joy when a Rogue player gets a critical on a monster with Combat Advantage is unforgettable.

Trust us, Sneak Attack/Warlock Curse/Hunters Quarry *is* normal damage, and it is maxed on a crit, if only for the cheers around the table on a natural 20. That's what D&D is about IMO.

 

[Caliban]

Striker damage is maximized on a crit, and what's more if the weapon has a daily power that allows you to do extra damage on a it (such as a flaming weapon), you can choose to trigger it when you crit and that damage will be maximized as well.

Crits with magic weapons do a lot of damage, and crits from strikers with magic weapons do even more.

 

[fissionessence]

Honestly, I don't know how everyone was so sure of this, as I really didn't think the evidence was concrete to any degree . . . but, I contacted customer service and I'm now convinced that you are all correct. Sneak Attack, Warlock's Curse, Hunter's Quarry, the flaming weapon damage Caliban mentioned, and even the extra d10 from the Inescapable Force feat against an insubstantial creature are all maximized on a critical hit.

Thanks for helping convince me, and good job reading the rules more correctly than I could

~ fissionessence

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, but you know what? If you look in the main 4e official faq, it actually says the opposite, lol! So WotC can't even decide what it means. I'm thinking since I do it the way customer service says now I'll probably keep doing it that way, but it is a lot harder to say you're just plain wrong when the faq backs it up.

One of many wordings that unfortunately didn't come out clear. But heck, you'll always get that with any game.