D&D General Weapon Mastery - Yea or Nay?

[Willie the Duck]

I voted mu/Jello.

• They slow down combat, but so do bonus actions, reactions, reroll effects, and any number of levelled spells -- pretty much all the things people do other than 'roll to attack' which people complained about fighters not doing and everyone else doing. So I can't really lay blame for combat slowness at WM's feet.
• They do not make D&D combat fun, exciting, and tactical, but I don't really find D&D combat fun, exciting, and tactical. So I guess I can blame it for not solving the ongoing problem the game has had, but there it also shares blame with the rest of the game.

Pretty much WM just brings martial weapon combat to the same place as the rest of modern D&D. I don't love the implementation -- advantage attack, disadvantage counterattack, damage on miss, damage to 3rd party aren't exactly the most interesting things you could do with added complexity (trip, although cumbersome, is at least interesting in that it changes behavior) -- but it isn't terrible.
My actual gripe is actually with Nick -- two-weapon fighting should either cost a bonus action or not, making not-doing-so be a WM feature didn't really add anything to the game other than figure out another thing to put on the weapon list, ensure that most 2wf will involve scimitars, and require 'build' gyrations to get monks or bladelocks who fight using that style.

Overall, my reaction is 'it's fiiine.' Not how I would have gone about addressing the game differences for weapon-fighting/those-who-focus-on-it and everyone else, but also not the worst implementation they could have made.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Getting it all automated in Foundry has helped a lot. Now they're cool. Like spells.

Good point.

That said, this issue recently came up in PbP before I found this thread. So here's my thoughts on weapon masteries in general from the PbP / live table experience-

1. As a general concept, I love them. I like martial characters. I like abilities that aren't spells. I like differentiating weapons. So conceptually, I like weapon masteries a great deal!!!!!!

2. But in terms of specific implementation? I have ... issues. At this point, I would say that they aren't half-baked, but maybe 3/4 baked.

Now, let me start by acknowledging what Mistwell said- if combat is implemented through software, it works more smoothly. But if it isn't? Well, certain weapon masteries are just awesome in concept, but way too slow in use. Topple- I'm looking at you. Forcing a save on every single hit can slow things down immensely, especially when the effect of that hit can make a difference moving forward.

Next, I don't understand how people can say they are getting rid of masteries entirely. Some masteries are pretty much required under the rules to effectuate a certain playstyle. In other words, if you want to TWF, then you need to have the nick mastery in the game. It just doesn't work if you don't have that mastery. (That said, all the rules about TWF are, apparently, so complicated that I had to do a dive into it in order to fully understand how it works)

Some of the masteries are relatively simple to administer and understand. Cleave. Graze (that's really easy).
Two of them provide automatic advantage or disadvantage. Vex and sap. Which can be interesting, although having read this thread, I can understand the comment from @TaranTheWanderer that giving a solo boss disadvantage at-will might be a bit much (while auto advantage is really good, especially for cunning strikes, there tends to be a lot of ways by mid-tier to generate it).
Push is either awesome or useless- it's great for ranged and skirmishing, but otherwise situationally useful at best.
And slow ... is either useless*, or, combined with slasher on a whip, is seriously annoying. IMO.

In other words, I like them, conceptually. As things move more and more to automated combat, I think we will see more variants that require time. But as it stands, I feel like they still need one more pass.

*Outside of ranged combat.

 

[payn]

Good point.

That said, this issue recently came up in PbP before I found this thread. So here's my thoughts on weapon masteries in general from the PbP / live table experience-

1. As a general concept, I love them. I like martial characters. I like abilities that aren't spells. I like differentiating weapons. So conceptually, I like weapon masteries a great deal!!!!!!

2. But in terms of specific implementation? I have ... issues. At this point, I would say that they aren't half-baked, but maybe 3/4 baked.

Now, let me start by acknowledging what Mistwell said- if combat is implemented through software, it works more smoothly. But if it isn't? Well, certain weapon masteries are just awesome in concept, but way too slow in use. Topple- I'm looking at you. Forcing a save on every single hit can slow things down immensely, especially when the effect of that hit can make a difference moving forward.

Next, I don't understand how people can say they are getting rid of masteries entirely. Some masteries are pretty much required under the rules to effectuate a certain playstyle. In other words, if you want to TWF, then you need to have the nick mastery in the game. It just doesn't work if you don't have that mastery. (That said, all the rules about TWF are, apparently, so complicated that I had to do a dive into it in order to fully understand how it works)

Some of the masteries are relatively simple to administer and understand. Cleave. Graze (that's really easy).
Two of them provide automatic advantage or disadvantage. Vex and sap. Which can be interesting, although having read this thread, I can understand the comment from @TaranTheWanderer that giving a solo boss disadvantage at-will might be a bit much (while auto advantage is really good, especially for cunning strikes, there tends to be a lot of ways by mid-tier to generate it).
Push is either awesome or useless- it's great for ranged and skirmishing, but otherwise situationally useful at best.
And slow ... is either useless*, or, combined with slasher on a whip, is seriously annoying. IMO.

In other words, I like them, conceptually. As things move more and more to automated combat, I think we will see more variants that require time. But as it stands, I feel like they still need one more pass.

*Outside of ranged combat.

Excellent point! I think there will be a bit of push and pull as automation of VTT becomes more prevalent and folks get back to the table top more since Covid. Something designers will need to mull over as they make game elements going forward.

 

[orangefruitbat]

Put me down in the definite No camp. They slow down combat too much, are gamey and as DM tracking lots of creatures, are a PITA. In fact, I dislike them so much that they've killed 5.5 for me and I've gone back to 5.0 (if I'm not playing OSE or Shadowdark).

 

[Bill Zebub]

Put me down in the definite No camp. They slow down combat too much, are gamey and as DM tracking lots of creatures, are a PITA. In fact, I dislike them so much that they've killed 5.5 for me and I've gone back to 5.0 (if I'm not playing OSE or Shadowdark).

Yeah I'm fully into Shadowdark now, and starting to explore Dragonbane.

But if @Micah Sweet can constantly chime in on games he doesn't play anymore, so can I!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Excellent point! I think there will be a bit of push and pull as automation of VTT becomes more prevalent and folks get back to the table top more since Covid. Something designers will need to mull over as they make game elements going forward.

It's going to be interesting to see what balance, if any, they strike.

This is off-the-cuff, so bear with me. If you look at the weapon masteries, I think that they were designed to be quick and easy to administer in tabletop combat. And most of them are!

But that also means that there is a limit to what you can do with them in terms of the design space. Arguably, the issue with an ability like sap is that the target doesn't get a save, so you can automatically impose disadvantage on any target. But on the plus side? It's simple- no burden of rolling saves, and because it doesn't "stack," it doesn't really matter if you hit the target one time or ten times.

The major exception is, of course, topple, Which is a really cool ability ... in theory. I love it. But in execution, it slows things down because it can force a save on every single hit. If you get more attacks (or more PCs have a weapon with topple), then it can slow things down immensely, especially since monsters tend to have high constitutions so there may be multiple topple attempts per round (and then it stands up and it repeats the next round, etc.).

Normally, when you use a spell or an ability to force a save, you're often using a resource-limited ability (spell slots, ki points, etc.) so you have to be somewhat judicious. But attacks with weapons are the defining "not resource limited" thing in D&D. You see the tension there? The part of combat that used to go very quickly can suddenly get bogged down.

Which is why I think that there is only weapon mastery that forces a save. I think that if the game moves to a VTT-focused approach, we will see an explosion of different weapon masteries that will be handled "in the background."


ETA- in writing this, I should add that I don't do VTT. I'm old school like that. But I also yell at clouds.

 

[payn]

It's going to be interesting to see what balance, if any, they strike.

This is off-the-cuff, so bear with me. If you look at the weapon masteries, I think that they were designed to be quick and easy to administer in tabletop combat. And most of them are!

But that also means that there is a limit to what you can do with them in terms of the design space. Arguably, the issue with an ability like sap is that the target doesn't get a save, so you can automatically impose disadvantage on any target. But on the plus side? It's simple- no burden of rolling saves, and because it doesn't "stack," it doesn't really matter if you hit the target one time or ten times.

The major exception is, of course, topple, Which is a really cool ability ... in theory. I love it. But in execution, it slows things down because it can force a save on every single hit. If you get more attacks (or more PCs have a weapon with topple), then it can slow things down immensely, especially since monsters tend to have high constitutions so there may be multiple topple attempts per round (and then it stands up and it repeats the next round, etc.).

Normally, when you use a spell or an ability to force a save, you're often using a resource-limited ability (spell slots, ki points, etc.) so you have to be somewhat judicious. But attacks with weapons are the defining "not resource limited" thing in D&D. You see the tension there? The part of combat that used to go very quickly can suddenly get bogged down.

Which is why I think that there is only weapon mastery that forces a save. I think that if the game moves to a VTT-focused approach, we will see an explosion of different weapon masteries that will be handled "in the background."


ETA- in writing this, I should add that I don't do VTT. I'm old school like that. But I also yell at clouds.

Good points. I think one of the things that doesnt shy me away is all my 3E/PF1 table top experience. I used a laptop with dice roller for situations like fireball and having to make a dozen saves every round, lol.

Im wondering how long until we have a monstrosity that nobody would play at the table? I mean, I know some will say "its already here, 5.24!!!" though im thinking real "gloves off wargame mechanics back to the 80's baby nobody in their right mind would try to run this analog" designed RPG...

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Good points. I think one of the things that doesnt shy me away is all my 3E/PF1 table top experience. I used a laptop with dice roller for situations like fireball and having to make a dozen saves every round, lol.

Im wondering how long until we have a monstrosity that nobody would play at the table? I mean, I know some will say "its already here, 5.24!!!" though im thinking real "gloves off wargame mechanics back to the 80's baby nobody in their right mind would try to run this analog" designed RPG...

It's all fun and games until they bring back the "Weapon Type vs. Armor Class Table."

Then? Then we're cooking with gas!

 

[payn]

It's all fun and games until they bring back the "Weapon Type vs. Armor Class Table."

Then? Then we're cooking with gas!

ohhh and weapons speeds with crit threat ranges and multipliers!

 

[Stalker0]

I also think Weapon Mastery tried to fill a niche that honestly was already well handled by the Grapple rules. 2014 grappling is awesome. you can do all sorts of control with it.

1) Knock a person back.
2) Hold them in place
3) Move them to where you want them.
4) REALLY hold them in place (followup with a prone grapple and now they are basically restrained for all intents and purposes).

and it was relatively easy to do, an opposed athletics check which many monsters were not great at. Sure its not the control that casters can do, but it was so easy to apply that it was often just as useful.

Compared to the 2024 system which is far harder to do + weapon masteries....in a way I think a lot of martial control builds actually took a step back rather than forward.