D&D General Weapon Mastery - Yea or Nay?

[Benjamin Olson]

Those spells like Synaptic Static, Slow, Moonbeam and Burning Hands have been demanding far more saves at their respective level than a masteries equivalent saves. Affecting more than one thing in a round feels like a harsh judgement.

Of course a lot depends on party make up. Only a couple of classes get weapon masteries and they don’t apply in an every case as per my message above.

I’ve played D&D of all editions for a very long time and in 35 years I’ve never found it was the rogue or the fighter that was slowing down combat. In fact the opposite - their turns used to be painfully brief, as the wizard agonized over where to place their darkness spell.

Well those are leveled spells, and we were talking cantrips (ie: the caster's equivalent unlimited resource). I see a goalpost moving.

The fact that I've accepted that figuring out the consequences of big spells will slow down combat does not mean that I want to slow down the resolution of basic attacks for the sake of some sort of martial v. caster "fairness in gumming up the works".

 

[TheSword]

Well those are leveled spells, and we were talking cantrips (ie: the caster's equivalent unlimited resource). I see a goalpost moving.

The fact that I've accepted that figuring out the consequences of big spells will slow down combat does not mean that I want to slow down the resolution of basic attacks for the sake of some sort of martial v. caster "fairness in gumming up the works".

We’re comparing Cantrip to single attacks and leveled spells to the relevant number of multiple attacks. Not doing that is comparing a caster’s fall back to a martial’s main vehicle for affecting the world.

 

[cbwjm]

It’s worth noting that the cantrip comparison was made to avoid folks saying a low levels fighters will be doing this all times while casters are limited to slots. At the point at which fighters are getting 2+ attacks, cantrips become rarer and leveled spells are much more common affecting many more actors.

You could probably compare the number of times dice are rolled for something closer to time taken.

Assuming 5th level (I used the theatre of mind assumptions for fireball, and my own experience for calculating burning hands)

A burning hands spell is probably going to hit only a couple of people (2 saves), with one damage roll. Fireball can hit a lot more but is also more limited in number of uses, it might easily hit 4 creatures for 4 saves and 1 damage roll.

If a fighter with topple hits 2 different creatures that's 2 attack rolls, 2 saves, 2 damage rolls, equivalent number of rolls to hitting 5 creatures with fireball, and the fighter might do it again for a couple more rounds.

Still, that's just topple, other mastery properties without saves wouldn't slow things down as much so I wouldn't expect an issue there since many of them just apply an effect without a save and I don't see the DM and players having to remember that slow came from the mastery rather than the slow spell as being a huge issue, but DMs running 5.5 might have more to say on that having actual experience.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ok, so our group has been playing 2024 D&D for about 8 or 9 months now. Have been mostly enjoying it - a fine "evolution" of the 2014 rule set. Still finding little nuggets of changes that are easy to overlook, especially with spells (and grappling/shoving!).

But weapon mastery...oof. I get the intent, let's give those martials more tactical abilities! But boy do they slow things down at our table. Even the martials don't like them, and on the DM side its just one more thing to track (and remember for attacks too). So, last session, we decided to ditch 'em.

What are your thoughts on weapon mastery? Not theoretical, but in actual play? Yea or Nay?

I prefer Level Up's Combat Maneuvers. A lot more variety, and they're available to some degree to most classes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't know, maybe they like pain? But you make a good point: I've played with a lot of characters in our campaigns (one of the players seems to theorycraft builds only to get them killed) but I haven't ever seen a monk in play. And from looking at comments online, I can see why. We're going to be playing the Vecna adventure path, so that game will likely go for at least a year or so, but if I do get them to go to 5.5, I'll definitely suggest trying out the monk. And the Champion!

You could try Level Up's Adept if you want a monk alternative. It's a broader class but allows for the same class fantasy.

 

[Older Beholder]

The campaign I'm playing in where we switched to the updated rules has been a little slow to adopt weapon mastery.
We don't bother with it a lot of the time, it's more something that players will pull out during a tough fight or if there's a specific reason to use an ability.

 

[MGibster]

I voted a reluctant no. The idea is sound, but the execution is lacking. Combat in D&D takes too long as it is and adding yet another thing for people to track is a pain in the rear. I'm not going to house rule them into oblivion, but I'm not going to like it either.

 

[billd91]

I think they're a bit "one note"-ish in the sense that the one note each weapon plays is repeatedly spammed. If anybody thought the trip attacks people made with the spiked chain back in 3e was tedious, don't let anyone pick topple. Granted, I think the 5e.2024 implementation is at least a little better in the sense that the attacker actually gets to inflict damage where they didn't with 3e's improved trip so at least some progress is being made in defeating the enemy...

 

[Horwath]

yay, but....

idea is good, but as many mentioned, little under cooked.

mastery should be broad ability,not chained to a single weapon, similar to BM maneuvers.

IE:

Graze; apply to all 2Handed and Versatile weapons
Vex; apply to all Ranged, Light and Finesse weapons
Topple; apply to all Heavy weapons
Slow; apply to all weapons
Push; apply to all 2Handed and Versatile weapons
Deadly(replaces UA FLex); add +1 damage or +2 for 2Handed or Versatile weapons, this is just a simple one for ones that do not want to bother with nothing special.
Cleave; apply to all melee 2Handed and Versatile weapons

change to Topple and Graze;
topple: trip the target if you beat AC by 5 or more
graze: deal minimum damage if you miss AC by 5 or less

fighters can later apply 2 masteries per attack.

 

[aco175]

Like a lot of rules and sub-systems, I have the players do the work. If their PC has the mastery to grant advantage next round, the player needs to remember it. Same for the monster getting disadvantage on hitting them. They remind me when I'm going around the grid rolling dice. A lot of the players place a ring on the mini of the monster to point out that there is something with the monster. We already do this with ongoing spell effects. The player rolls the save for topple. The more I can pass off to the players means the more I can deal with.