Weapon with spell storing ability question

[Hassassin]

Spell Storing may not be listed as a property for ranged ammo but in Faiths and Pantheons the deity Mystra is listed as using:

+5 distance keen returning shock spell storing shuriken.


so whether its legit or not evidently deities can still do it

IMHO even returning shouldn't be possible for shuriken, since they "are treated as ammunition for the purposes of [...] crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown." That would open the door to serious abuse because enhancing ammunition costs only 1/50. (Keen and spell storing I would not allow on any ranged weapons.)

Of course, deities are there to break the rules.

 

[Greenfield]

Okay then, think of it as a funny-shaped dagger if that helps.

The 1/50th price for ammunition isn't quite right, after all. You still pay full price for the enhancement, you just get it in a "50 charge" batch, with one piece of ammo counting as a "charge".

So paying full price for a single reusable item, be it a javelin or a shuriken, isn't exactly broken. Getting 50 returning/reusable javelin or shuriken? That would be broken.

As for the legality/functionality of spell storing on a ranged weapon or piece of ammunition? Ultimately a DM's call, though the books do seem to suggest that it's not normally allowed.

 

[Andras]

Putting Returning on ammunition is a waste of money since ammo is destroyed on a hit, and 50% on a miss.

I disagree with the fact that the spell used this way isn't allowed a chance to crit, the weapon is still merely a extention of your hand. It just so happens that the weapon is storing it for you until you wish to release it.

I have yet to find any wording in the SRD that states it shouldn't still crit.

If it's writen somewhere that touch spells used this way are not allowed to crit, then please tell me where.

Pg 140, PHB, Critical Hit 'sidebar' at bottom of page:
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt be sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

 

[Greenfield]

"Returning" is, by definition, an enchantment applied to the "ammunition" of a ranged weapon. Doesn't make sense to add it to a Greatsword, after all. You don't apply it to the bow or sling, only to the hammer, dagger or axe.

There are a number of ranged/ammunition type weapons that aren't destroyed when used. Javelin, spears, throwing axes and daggers are among these.

So how do we decide what it can be added to, and what it can't?

Some might say that the dividing line lay in how the weapon is delivered. Hurled weapons, like daggers and spears, might fall on one side of that line. If fired from a weapon, as arrows, bolts and sling bullets are, would fall on the other. Yet darts are considered "ammunition", and spears (which can be fired with a spear-thrower) aren't.

Others might draw the line based on the size of the item, or how they're normally bought and carried. Small items might count as "disposable", and weapons sold in quantity are obviously intended to be "fire and forget". But daggers are small, and Javelin are carried in a quiver designed to hold 6 or 8.

We might look (ironically) at how fragile/breakable an item is. Arrows shatter relatively easily, while daggers don't. But sling stones aren't even slightly fragile, yet are counted as "ammunition".

There are flaws in all of these arguments, when we compare them to the rules of the game. IRL I've seen a light spear/javelin break (quite easily) when it hit a target and knocked it over, for example. The weight of the spear sticking out of the target made the target topple towards the thrower, and the weight of the target landing on the spear snapped it like a twig.

So I guess it would be a relatively arbitrary decision no matter what standard you tried to apply. More of a "I know it when I see it" kind of thing.

For game purposes, I'd draw the line based on how you paid for it. If you wanted a single magic arrow of Returning, and paid full price for it (as opposed to paying for a set of 50), I'd probably say it was fine. You won't get to fire it multiple times in a round, no matter what, since Returning items come back at the end of your round. Same for Shuriken or sling stones or anything else.

Thus Bard the Bowman really could have his favorite black arrow, the one that never seems to miss, and that he's always gotten back. The one that killed Smaug.

But he only gets one.

 

[Hassassin]

For game purposes, I'd draw the line based on how you paid for it. If you wanted a single magic arrow of Returning, and paid full price for it (as opposed to paying for a set of 50), I'd probably say it was fine. You won't get to fire it multiple times in a round, no matter what, since Returning items come back at the end of your round. Same for Shuriken or sling stones or anything else.

You'd of course by free to do that, but at least with respect to arrows it's clearly not allowed by RAW: "[The Returning] special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown." Unless you rule that it can be applied to anything (since anything can be thrown as an improvised weapon) it cannot be put on arrows.

 

[Greenfield]

Oh, I agree, the RAW says no.

Oddly, the complaint was made that it can't be added to Shuriken, which are hurled weapons.

My point was that the reason for many of the restrictions seems to be that you shouldn't get that neat ability, infinitely reusable, at the "50 for the price of 1" rate. So in my view, if someone insists on trying to make an infinitely reusable magic arrow, treat it as a magic weapon, not ammunition. Make them pay for it as a single weapon, and get just the one for the money, not 50.

 

[Andras]

Oh, I agree, the RAW says no.

Oddly, the complaint was made that it can't be added to Shuriken, which are hurled weapons.

My point was that the reason for many of the restrictions seems to be that you shouldn't get that neat ability, infinitely reusable, at the "50 for the price of 1" rate. So in my view, if someone insists on trying to make an infinitely reusable magic arrow, treat it as a magic weapon, not ammunition. Make them pay for it as a single weapon, and get just the one for the money, not 50.

Or you could buy the Relic in MIC that does the same thing, Raptor Arrow p 56.

PS- I said putting Returning on shuriken is a waste of money because they will be destroyed when they hit, and half the time when they miss. Due to the exponential nature of pricing magic weapons, you can get 4x as many +1 Shuriken as you can +1 Returning Shuriken.

I guess I also have to point out that the PHB says that although Shuriken are throwing weapons they are treated as ammunition for ... otherwise special versions of them. So one shouldn't be able to put Returning on them.