Weapon's Initiative

[Steven McRownt]

One of the problem i've found with 3e was the weapon's initiative modifiers. So i've built this table. Again, this morning i had to trnslate it to english, and i hope it's ok...

In the file attached i've also put some other interesting bits of house rules like the minium strenght required to fire with bows...

Please feedback me soon!

Steven McRownt

 

[hong]

Eh, this isn't the 2E weapon speed thing again, is it?

 

[Steven McRownt]

weapon's initiative

Please, read it first, and then you'll find that it is not just a speed factor table, but something in pure 3e style, with the idea of a greatsword slower than a rapier....


It took me a long time to balance all the variables, and i think is enough realistic (depending on size of weapons and weapon's users) but easy to understand (at least in the italian version!)

So, download it, and let me know what u think about it...


Steven McRownt

 

[Chacal]

Please feedback me soon!

Would it be hard to put your stuff directly readable online (html) or directly in a post ?

It would be easier to review.
At least, if the tables are tricky to post, please explain us the goals and principles used.


Chacal

 

[Steven McRownt]

Chacal, i'm trying again to post u a reply.

The main variables of the table are:

size of the weapon
size of the user
type of the weapon

a little weapon is quicker than a lerger one (but a dagger could be little for a human, but not so little for a pixie)

a bludgeoning weapon is easy to understand how could work, but is heavier (and slower) than a rapier

and as another house rule inside the same file, you have to be strong to load and fire with a composite long bow but not so strong for a light x-bow

Are you courious enough?

I'll manage to put the tables "on-line", i promise that!!!!!

Steven McRownt

 

[Chacal]

a little weapon is quicker than a lerger one (but a dagger could be little for a human, but not so little for a pixie)

Isn't this concept (wielder size Vs weapon size) already handled by the "light" "medium" and "heavy" words ? (a shortsword is "light" for an human, not for a gnome)

a bludgeoning weapon is easy to understand how could work, but is heavier (and slower) than a rapier

At first I would say right, but thinking about the heavy flail ....

and as another house rule inside the same file, you have to be strong to load and fire with a composite long bow but not so strong for a light x-bow

it makes sense...

Are you courious enough?

Yes, I still don't see how you make a weapon faster.


Is it :
- by having an initiative modifier
- by having a cumulative initiative modifier
(somthing like : a rapier wielder's initiative raises by 1 every round and a Greatsword lowers by 2 )

Do you distinguish between the begining of a fight, and the following rounds:

If already drawn, a Greatsword could(?) have a higher initiative than the dagger because of the reach[\i] (not the D&D reach), but when dagger manage to strike, it could strike faster.

I'll manage to put the tables "on-line", i promise that!!!!!

Thanks !:


Chacal

 

[Hammerhead]

Problems

However, while a question: sure, a dagger can be stabbed alot faster than a greatsword. But isn't the greatsword longer, thus allowing the half orc to hit the target when he's six feet away, where the dagger hits them at two feet? How do reconcile a greater length of a weapon, and the speed of the weapon?

Plus, what about casting times for different spells. And what about non-attacking options in combat? And what about (Insert Your Own Here)

The best, easiest solution is to use the core rules.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Its weapon speed all over again.

The problem is that weapon speeds aren't "real". That is, it doesn't matter how many times I swing my sword at you, 1d8 is how much damage I deal you in 6 seconds (well, before multiple attacks, anyway). Perhaps in 6 seconds you slash me 4 times with a dagger and I get 2 blows in with my greatsword. It doesn't matter - it's the rate of damage that matters.

Initiative is how fast you react to the situation more than how fast you can attack with your weapon. Any of the standard melee weapons can be brought to bear (once drawn) within a small fraction of a second, after which you attack for the remainder of the time.

I assume these are one-time initiative modifiers - if not, I'll argue later. If they are, what's to stop the rogue with Quick Draw from declaring a dagger as his weapon, then dropping it and attacking with another he Quick Draws? What about the wizard who holds a dagger, then drops it and casts a spell? Are initiatives modified after the fact? Are actions declared? It's just a big mess, and it takes D&D further from a truly cyclic initiative system.

 

[dvvega]

By my reading of the document, it would seem you are assuming that people roll for initiative every round?

This would be the only way your modifiers make sense. If you use one initiative per combat, your system is "Realistic" for only the first round.

How can I say this? Well using a weapon also depends on that weapons weight, the combatant's stamina and strength, and the duration of the combat.

A perfect example would be the movie Rob Roy. The final duel between Rob and the fop. Rob Roy uses a very heavy weapon and is extremely tired at the end, while the fop, although tired, is much better off than the scottsman. Rob is the hardier of the two men, having grown up on the land, but his weapon is extremely heavy.

In addition, CRGreathouse's comment on weapon lengths is extremely valid. But even then you'd have to take into consideration the speed at which the combatant with the greatsword could bring his weapon to bear. The greatsword's swing is difficult to control. In fact once a greatsword wielder swings the first time, a dagger user could duck in and stab repeatedly before the greatsword wielder could stop his swing and bring it back for another attack (even if he attempted a backswing attack). I am of course assuming both combatants are of equal training.

This brings up the factor whereby a wizard with martial proficiency greatsword is nowhere near as good as a fighter, no matter what you might want to say. The BAB reflects this well, however you should factor that into any form of initiative modification system.

Yes what I am saying is to not even try ... I agree with Hammerhead and CRGreathouse ... the core rules work well, all beit with a light suspension in reality, however there is basically no simple way for you to simulate realistic fighting. If you really want a system like that try Rolemaster which doesn't even do it 100% unless you use one of the myriad of optional initiative rules out there.