Weapons of Legacy Question

[TheAuldGrump]

I have mixed feelings about this (as yet unpurchased) book.

My biggest problem is that I just don't like most of the items in the book. (Aside for the modified rules for Holy Avenger, etc.)

The biggest draw is the section on designing your own.

I guess that at heart I like the idea better than the implimentation. (But I really like the idea.)

The Auld Grump

 

[Nightfall]

Grump,

Maybe you should consider other alternative or mixing and matching WoL with other "leveling" stuff.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

No limit per day, but it's something that only became available at 13th level. It's not a problem. At that level, scorching ray is great to have as a back-up spell, but it's Peggy's other spells that really make a difference in play.

Cheers!

13th level is probably ok as it won't totally dominate a combat and gives the wizard/sorcerer/whatever a "back-up" spell that never runs out.

Do you have to recharge the staff though?

Olaf the Stout

 

[MerricB]

That's where I don't like the negatives.

Player: Oh look my weapon is now a +2 sword instead of +1

DM: Yeah but you have a -1 BAB penalty

Player: So I get an extra +1 to hit with this weapon but I lose 1 point of BAB. What exactly do I gain from that.

DM: Ummmmm......

Player:

Heh. My players know exactly what you mean. Actually, it ends up being +1 to damage (which isn't insignificant), but the penalties to hit are actually rather rare when compared over the lifespan of the weapon.

So, Alden's Greatsword became +1 after he slew the Ebon Aspect with it. It then gain the ability to bypass the DR of outsiders (Creature Compass), and then became Keen. At this point, the -1 to hit kicked in, which is sort of minor compared to the rest of what it was doing. Then +2 to Strength, the weapon became +2, then the final -1 to hit kicks in. After that, the weapon will eventually give +6 Strength, become +5 keen shocking burst and generally be nice. -2 to hit? That's minor.

On a slightly different note, how much did you tailor the abilities to the player? Are all the abilities that they gain the most optimal gains for their character? Are they themed? i.e. A staff gaining predominantly cold-based abilities?

I generally create the items around themes that often relate somewhat to the PCs. Not always. In Peggy's wizard's case, The Staff of Dragon's Tears is the result of a love-affair between an elven sorceress and a gold dragon; the abilities represent a blending of the arcane powers of the elf and the dragon, and eventually Peggy will need to stand before the gold dragon in question to be judged worthy of the greater abilities of the item. The staff is a "cool wizard item" rather than particularly being themed for Peggy's PC.

OTOH, Martin's barbarian managed to single-handedly slay the Ebon Aspect in AoW, which was too cool to ignore, so his mwk greatsword became a legacy weapon. It has the Creature Compass (evil outsider) ability because of that deed, and otherwise really plays to his barbarian's strengths.

With Greg's Incarnate's ring of memories, I introduced it as a particular plot point for the campaign, and expanding upon my own theories of what incarnum is. (I'm also using a few ideas from Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen that relate back). Some of the powers, such as its ability to cure light wounds 3/day, really aid Greg's PC, and were added with that in mind. Others will spur future adventures.

Cheers!

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I have mixed feelings about this (as yet unpurchased) book.

My biggest problem is that I just don't like most of the items in the book. (Aside for the modified rules for Holy Avenger, etc.)

The biggest draw is the section on designing your own.

I guess that at heart I like the idea better than the implimentation. (But I really like the idea.)

The Auld Grump

I'd tend to agree with this.

Idea: Weapon that grows in power with the wielder.

Great idea! No more hocking off the family heirloom because I found something that's a little better.

Implimentation: Not so good

How this could be fixed? Not so sure.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Nightfall]

Yeah Martin's sword is truly something of legend killing an Ebon Aspect. So...is he gonna use it against it's big brother soon?

Olaf,

One way to off set stuff beyond pure XP and gold, (and of course quests) is sacrifice of HP. Blood makes the grass grow green! Plus maybe bathing it in holy stuff that's only found once every 1,000 years. That kind of stuff. But obviously the benefits should be good enough to off set the penalties or costs some how without completely nerfing or munckining it. Hard to judge that one no matter what system you use I think.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Grump,

Maybe you should consider other alternative or mixing and matching WoL with other "leveling" stuff.

I'm still trying to find that ideal system. The DMG II rules don't seem too bad except that the rituals are too limiting in my opinion. There are only 10 rituals, of which I think only 5 can be used to bond with a weapon. Some of them have prerequisities such as having x ranks in a particular spell which limit things even further.

Olaf the Stout

 

[MerricB]

13th level is probably ok as it won't totally dominate a combat and gives the wizard/sorcerer/whatever a "back-up" spell that never runs out.

Do you have to recharge the staff though?

Nope. Most of its abilities are "1/day" or "3/day", although there are a few constant abilities (read magic, scorching ray) as noted.

I'm pretty certain that my group doesn't browse EN World much, so here's the full Staff of Dragon's Tears:

5th: 3/day-magic missile
6th: (lose 1st level slot) At will-detect magic, read magic, arcane mark
7th: (-1 all saves; -1 caster level) -
8th: (-1 all skills; lose 2nd level slot) +2 enhancement bonus to Intelligence or Charisma
9th: 3/day - Lesser Enlarge Spell
10th: (lose 3rd level slot); +5 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks
11th: 3/day - Lesser Empower Spell
12th: (lose 4th level slot); at will - scorching ray
13th: 1/day - fireball
14th: (lose 5th level slot); +4 enhancement bonus to Intelligence or Charisma
15th: (-2 to caster level); Darkvision 60 ft.
16th: (lose 6th level slot); 3/day - Extend Spell
17th: +6 enhancement to Intelligence or Charisma; see invisibility
18th: (lose 7th level slot); 3/day - Greater Enlarge Spell
19th: 3/day - Lesser Quicken Spell
20th: (lose 8th level slot); 3/day - Empower Spell

Legacy Rituals:
Least (3,500 gp): Travel to a shrine of Corellon Larethian and ask the blessing of the god of the elves.
Lesser (13,500 gp): Engage in research of the planes and arcane magic at a greater library.
Greater (43,000 gp): Stand in judgement before one of the seven Gold Dragons who serve Bahamut.

Note: all penalties are non-cumulative in this case; at 18th level, Peggy has -2 to all skills, -1 to all saves, -1 to caster level and has lost one 7th level slot. Assuming I've copied them down correctly, of course!

Cheers!

 

[Nightfall]

I'm still trying to find that ideal system. The DMG II rules don't seem too bad except that the rituals are too limiting in my opinion. There are only 10 rituals, of which I think only 5 can be used to bond with a weapon. Some of them have prerequisities such as having x ranks in a particular spell which limit things even further.

Olaf the Stout

Well can you maybe look OUTSIDE the DMG II? Arms and Armor 3.5 has some ideas, I know that there's also using BoED with their "relic" rules might work. Uhm those are a few off the top of my head. Oh wait! Almost forgot, Vigil Watch: Secrets of the Assatthi, has "blade" feats but I'm sure you can adapt them to other items as well.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Heh. My players know exactly what you mean. Actually, it ends up being +1 to damage (which isn't insignificant), but the penalties to hit are actually rather rare when compared over the lifespan of the weapon.

So, Alden's Greatsword became +1 after he slew the Ebon Aspect with it. It then gain the ability to bypass the DR of outsiders (Creature Compass), and then became Keen. At this point, the -1 to hit kicked in, which is sort of minor compared to the rest of what it was doing. Then +2 to Strength, the weapon became +2, then the final -1 to hit kicks in. After that, the weapon will eventually give +6 Strength, become +5 keen shocking burst and generally be nice. -2 to hit? That's minor.

Are there other negatives besides the -2 to hit though. Most items normally affected skills, HP's or saves as well (or spell slots for casters).

Olaf the Stout