Weapons of Legacy

[Gansk]

I don't have Weapons of Legacy either and was wondering if the book is an evolution of the Legendary Weapon/Scion prestige classes presented in Unearthed Arcana.

Do the two systems mesh? Is one better than the other? Can the Book of Nine Swords also fit into the mix without dominating the campaign?

Assume that only NPC's carry legacy weapons until the PC's take their stuff at higher levels. Does the system still work effectively?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I was designing my own version of such a system when WoL was released.

It's not perfect. As has been pointed out, the penalties can sometimes seem excessive or unrelated to the weapon in question. However, the methodology is sound, overall.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

It seemd a bit weak, particularly given that theres a PC with craft weapons and armor in the party. Its also based on the pre-magic item compendium practical look at magic item pricing.

Opening to a random page, lets examine Coral's Bite, a trident. Lets wave our hand, and pretend its a martial weapon someone would actually want to use (longsword, greatsword, etc). In the end, its a +3 monstrous humanoid bane trident that grants +2 natural armor class and lets you breathe underwater. The legacy rituals will run you 13,200 gp, and you end up losing 2 from all attack rolls, 3 from will saves and 10 HP.

Lets pretend monstrous humanoid bane is just as useful as any of the other bane types, so its a +4 weapon, which would ordinarily run a crafter 16,000 gp. We can compare its water breathing property to the "Gilled" property which lets a water breather breathe air, so thats another 3000 for the crafter (19,000). Lastly theres the natural armor bonus of +2. Its worse than a slotless item for a number of reasons, mainly you have to use the trident to get the benefit. So we'll use the standard 1.5 cost for natural armor bonus of +2 (8x1.5/2 = 6000). Total cost of this item is about 25000 for a party with access to the 2 most comonly taken craft feats (armos and armor, wondrous items). Though in my esitmate its a bit high for the natural armor bonus, since you can add it cheaper in the MIC, but whatever.

You save 11,800 gp for taking a -2 to all attacks (even with the stupid trident, which kind of negates the majority of the cost) - this includes grapples as well. You also lose a fairly brutal -3 to will saves, and 10 hp. IMO, and everyone I've gamed with, that translates into you paying way too much.

Lets recalculate the item assuming the -2 to all attacks really makes thde trident roughly the equivalent of a +1 monstrous bane trident. Yeah, you get an extra +2 to damage, but thats really hardly worth the full +2. The cost for a party with crafters drops noticably to 13,000). Meaning such a party actually pays 200 EXTRA for the privelege of losing 10hp, 3 to will saves and a -2 to attacks with other weapons.

WoL needs a bit of reworking IMO. Its iffy as is, but their value drops significantly when there are crafters present. our solution was to let crafters ignore half the penalty.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

After seeing it in use in my campaign, I think the concept is a good one but the actual mechanics need to be redone. I love the concept of a magic weapon growing in power as its wielder does. Like many others, I would echo the dislike of the penalties.

In my campaign I gave each of the players a WoL and just removed the penalties associated with them. I did keep the rituals and the GP cost associated with them though. If I didn't remove all the penalties I seriously doubt whether any of my players would have been interested in getting a WoL.

Since the players all have semi-powerful weapons without the penalties I now ramp up the challenges a bit to compensate. It makes combat a little bit harder for me to balance but I still think that is a better outcome than using the penalties.

Overall I would say that I'm still not satisfied with how they are working out in my game and I don't know that I would use WoL in my next campaign. Maybe if I had a bit more time to devote to work out the weapons' histories they might be better. Unfortunately I don't.

Olaf the Stout

 

[MerricB]

It seemd a bit weak, particularly given that theres a PC with craft weapons and armor in the party. Its also based on the pre-magic item compendium practical look at magic item pricing....

WoL needs a bit of reworking IMO. Its iffy as is, but their value drops significantly when there are crafters present. our solution was to let crafters ignore half the penalty.

Yeah. I've used WoL extensively, and I really like it, but some of the penalties are just a little too much. It's not too bad, but - for example - the progression that ends up with a -3 to attack with all weapons is too nasty.

I also loot books like the MIC to fit new abilities into the system at the assumed prices of WoL. (A=2000 gp, B=4000 gp, etc.)

Cheers!

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Yeah. I've used WoL extensively, and I really like it, but some of the penalties are just a little too much. It's not too bad, but - for example - the progression that ends up with a -3 to attack with all weapons is too nasty.

I also loot books like the MIC to fit new abilities into the system at the assumed prices of WoL. (A=2000 gp, B=4000 gp, etc.)

Cheers!

What abilities have you used/added Merric? I have found that with 5 WoL in the campaign, giving them all different abilities to be quite a challenge.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

If you look at the abilities at each progression level, you can see a pattern. Just look at the level of the abilities and you should be able to gauge what other abilities you could use of the same level.

 

[painandgreed]

Haven't seen the actual book but there were some legacy items in the Expedition to Ravenloft. To say the least, we were not impressed. All the PCs has already given them over to the NPCs to activate even before we found out about the penalties.

One word of warning, be careful what you introduce. For example, there was a sword and a holy symbol in Ravenloft. Nobody in our party was proficient with the sword and nobody wanted a holy symbol that wasn't of their own god. Similarly, if the characters in question have already put feats towards a different weapon, switching to some strange legacy weapon like the trident above will lose any advantages that isn't eaten up by the penalties. Unless introduced early in the campaign or a fairly common weapon with reasonably desirable powers, players might not be willing to take them up.

 

[Mercule]

What I keep hearing is that the only major flaw with the book is that the penalties are too high.

The obvious question, then, is: How hard is it to scale them back appropriately?

Corollary: How hard is it to design an appropriately balanced legacy item from scratch?

 

[Felon]

Weapons of Legacy actually serve as the linchpin of my long-running campaign. It's the players to run around and collect them for the demigod who engineered them all (he's basically a Prometheus-type character who taught the mortal races the secrets of creating magic items).

No character has really made any effort to learn how to use them beyond their most basic function. They figure that if they were meant to be used, it would be obvious. They've also simpliy assumed that their cursed or parasitic in nature, as they don't trust the demigod. The last one they found was a legacy version of a holy avenger, so that may change.

The penalties have to go. They have no value as a balancing mechanic, and the "canned" weapons don't really need the balancing. (let's see, I have a permanent sanctuary spell against spiders, and in excahnge I lose hit points and take a penalty on all my saves--yeah, that washes). Generally, the canned WoL are basically equivalent to any weapon a character could get as loot, with some nice little fluff abilities tacked on.